Music things

[Achenar]

Hi,

I've seen you're looking for a music composer for hooptie project. Maybe I could try doing something for it. I could do the music in MIDI, if that's OK.

I need to what are your needs or ideas for the music of the game.

Also, where can I download the game from?

Bye

[Pazolli]

This is really great to hear, you can download the game here (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/inkubator/hooptie-cocoa-0.2.1.dmg.tar.gz) (Mac OS X only - I hope that's not a problem). As for our ideas on game music I have none in particular but I'm some of the other members may. Personally I find artists tend to produce better work when they have more freedom in what they create, so please download the game, take it for a test run and let your creativity run from there. I'm sure you'll produce something way cooler than me (I can play Greensleves with one finger on a keyboard so anything beyond that is an improvement on my talent :D)

As for the game itself it is obviously still in development, but it gives a good idea of what the game will be like in the future. In the future I (or another developer) will make it so you can choose what music to play with which particular level when creating that level. There'll also be a Bonus Screen (http://sourceforge.net/pm/task.php?func=detailtask&project_task_id=38692&group_id=31218&group_project_id=13463) in the future too. The game has recently undergone some major graphical improvements (not yet available through the download).

I really look forward to working with you and on behalf of everyone would like to welcome you to the project. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask them.

Thanks for your much needed offer of assistance,
Mark.

[Achenar]

In fact, there actually is a problem with it being for Mac OS X. I just have right now Mac OS 8.6. If someone could do a small hack that looked similar to the game in BASIC or something like that, it would be very helpful.

I have some questions:

1. Is it OK that I do the music in MIDI or would you prefer it in MP3?

2. Will the program loop the music or do I have to llop it in the MIDI file? I ask this because I'm using MIDIGraphy for doing MIDIs, and I don't know if I can add loops.

3. How do I give you the files I come up with?

One more thing. I have done a little song. I uploaded it to my site, to download it, go to www.geocities.com/pacoelflaco_2000/song.mid . If you want, you can use it for the game, though I'm planning to add some more things to it. Maybe it can be used for the looping thing or something like that.

That's all I can think of now

[Achenar]

I have updated the song I made. The link is the same as before. Listen to it with the loop function on in quick time 5 to see how it will sound looped.

[Pazolli]

The link to the Geocities location you provided doesn't seem to work. Considering the sound files are MIDI files (and probably not too large), might I suggest you just e-mail them to me directly. My e-mail address is:

quirinus@mac.com

In turn I'll try to post a working link to them on our website here for everyone to see.

Thanks in advance,
Mark.

[DaFalcon]

Geocities doesn't allow direct linking to files, but if you copy and paste the url, it will load :-)

[Pazolli]

As promised here (http://inkubator.idevgames.com/song.midi) is the song Ricardo wrote. If anyone is willing to take charge of deciding which music should go where, I'd be really thankful. I'm also interested in anyone who might have the ability to implement the sound engine.

Mark.

[Achenar]

Is there somewhere or a way that I can get some screenshots of the game?

Maybe they would help me write more pieces for the game.

Right now I'm thinking of an idea for the game over screen, basing it on the screen Da'Falcon imagined of the alien eyes looking at Hooptie. Is that the one you are going to use?

[Pazolli]

Yes it certainly is. I will post some screenshots as soon as I get the chance*, unfortunately the next few days are extremely busy for me (I'm not on my Mac at the moment sorry).

Thanks for your ongoing interest in the game's music,
Mark.

* If anyone wants to do this for me I'd be most thankful remember you can enable a screen shot friendly mode by toggling the settings in the Globals.h header file.

[BobbyWatson]

Here's a couple of screenshots :

Screenshot 1 (http://homepage.mac.com/mlesperance/images/screen1.jpg)

Screenshot 2 (http://homepage.mac.com/mlesperance/images/screen2.jpg)

Screenshot 3 (http://homepage.mac.com/mlesperance/images/screen3.jpg)

Screenshot 4 (http://homepage.mac.com/mlesperance/images/screen4.jpg)

The first one is the first splashscreen, the second and third ones are from the first and second levels, and the third one is the game over screen. If you need more, just ask!

BobbyWatson

[Achenar]

Thanks for the screenshots bobby. I'll be working on something with them this week. In fact, I've got an idea for the music of the game over screen. Hope to have something ready to listen soon.

[Achenar]

Mark: I've done a song for the Game over screen. I've already sent it to your mail. Hope you like it.

Also, I wanted to ask how many songs would you need for the levels?

[Carlos Camacho]

Achenar,

You can make your MIDI files short and let the programmers worry about looping. Most likely they will use QuickTime to play back the MIDI files, which allows for tweaking of the MIDI, like looping.

What you need to ask the developers are the different "game states." Knowing that, you will be able to provide music that fits the game. Take a Pac-man like game..
You want some generic songs for regular play (hopefully they change at random or based on the level)
You want a song for when you are being chased
You want a song when your character goes into power mode..
Maybe a song between levels...
and so on...

So, when the devs trigger your MIDI, the game becomes better. This is much better than than playing one song over and over and the way that old console games worked.

You should stick to GM (General MIDI) instruments. In addition, you may want to make a song and save it with various instruments on... For example, full score version, version with just bass, version with just lead synth, etc.. Again, the devs can trigger the MIDIs to reduce the repetition. Of course, they might be able to turn off certain MIDI channels through QuickTime so in that case, dis-regard that last part.

Cheers,

[DaFalcon]

Carlos, do most games today have the kind of "dynamic" music you describe, or do they have simple looping tracks like in the older console days (by which I think of Mario Bros., though even that had music when you got a star, for example.) Maybe I don't understand :-) But I like what I think of when I think of music adapting to the character's situation :-)

[Kjurtyl]

I agree with Camacho that the looping should be left to the programmers. Also Hooptie would no doubt be that much more enjoyable with dynamic music. At the moment, aside from the game states I don't currently see any other instances for dynamic music to be applied.

Although it might be interesting to have more sinister music playing when you're down to your last penguin..

I've seen some games of "today" have dynamic music (think Deus Ex when an enemy spots you..) Yet I believe those are fewer than those who use simple looping music.

-Kjurtyl.

[Carlos Camacho]

Well, MIDI data is so small. A whole song can be under 32kB. The idea to use a song, but provide different versions (i.e. without the bass track) is nice because it adds spice to the music and allows for even smaller files.

In some games they use full MIDI scores but might change them for levels/worlds/game states. Although not a console game and based on audio format, WarCraft 2 is a good example. The music is there to set mood but not so IN YOUR FACE as to want to turn it off. Some early Nintendo 8-bit games really suffered from repetition. So much repetition in the music. But they had limited memory so I can understand why it was so.

As I mentioned, the music can change based on game states. One was just mentioned, like when you are down to one pingi. Or it can change as you move to the next level. Or it can change on the high score board or intro screen. Or when a new bad guy is formed...

What I would do is have some short game state songs and some random longer songs. BTW.. You could turn those MIDI files into AIFF and then the programmers could do some other funky things.. Like maybe add flange or reverb or stereo effects, and so on in real-time.

I'm still curious as to why so many modern day devs are against the MOD format. MP3 is great and all, but compare 3MB or so MP3s to a small MOD. Maybe with today's machines playing MP3s and also running your game is do-able, but think on the savings in disk space.

Oh, back to MIDI. One neat thing would be to allow MIDI to be played by the QT synth or sent to the MIDI out. (Maybe this is just a matter of the QT CP?) Anyhow, long ago, some games did this. Hearing GM MIDI on one of my Korg sound modules while playing a game would be great great great. This is also interesting because there isn't alot of code on Core Audio (MIDI) as far as I know.

Kjurtyl is on track - let the looping be set by the devs. On a side point, let us say you have a nice MIDI song playing. But the song is only an instrumental because of the MIDI format (one area that MOD wins.) You can also trigger cute samples to complement the music. Think the game Aperion. Lots of cute samples add fun to the game.

BTW.. If anyone wants to make quick MIDIs, download Virtual Drummer and then get a book with Drum Patterns. You can then save your music as MIDI or AIFF. Very cool and something anyone can do.

Now, I have babbled far too long...

[Josh]

Getting a little of subject (don't I always :))... all this talk of MIDI's has made me curious... obviously, MIDI's are pretty nifty. How (in OS 9) would I load and play MIDI's. Probably PlayMovie would work, but I currently use SndStartFilePlay. Sorry, I know this is off topic... :(

[geezusfreeek]

Jabber, Quicktime Player is the easiest way to play MIDIs.

I also would like to contribute my musical talents to this project. Now, I don't have any MIDI keyboards/software, but I do have SoundEdit and several instruments to play.

I believe that MIDI is probably the best choice for in-game music because it would be easier to make dynamic soundtracks, if that is how the music is intended to be. MIDI just sounds more "right" for in-game music anyway. I'll leave the in-game music up to Achenar if you use me.

What I can do is make short pieces, such as an intro for the splash screen (that may or may not be short, you tell me), level-completion, out of lives, game completion (again, you tell me if you want it long or short), etc.

Ideas I have in mind (I don't play drums, but I have a drum machine and can make drum patterns on the computer too. All of the below has drums except for the fanfare):
if the splash/intro screen has a short lick: some guitar lick
if the splash/intro screen has a long lick: either guitar and keyboard w/ funky sound effects or just MIDI
level completeion: either a trumpet fanfare or a short guitar lick
out of lives: death march with solo trumpet and snare drum
game completion: ideas anyone?
credits: just start rolling after game completion with same music playing? maybe MIDI as well....

[Kjurtyl]

I'm not sure if I understood your post right, which is why I'd like to know in which format you would provide your work?

Also, do you have OS X and have you downloaded the game?

We need someone who could manage the music for us (what music goes where), perhaps you'd be interested. You might want to contact Achenar and work out who will do what, he has at least one piece available perhaps he has more in the works.

At the moment I think we'd like to have as many contributions as possible and determine what goes in or not afterwards.

The Inkubator project was created as to allow collaboration between people to create open-source software; it's not exactly a dictatorship. If you think certain music you've made would be great for the game at any point in the game, then by all means, contribute - you risk nothing.

- Kjurtyl.

[geezusfreeek]

My work would be in mp3 most likely. Any MIDI stuff probably won't come from me because I lack decent tools for MIDI. That's a shame too. I don't have any money and can't find any good shareware/freeware notation software without annoying limitations that can export MIDI files.

Yes, I have OS X and have downloaded the game. I also am getting into programming, but I don't think I'm quite to the level of contributing anything useful on those grounds.

My plan, if he agrees, is for Achenar to make the in-game music (and maybe intro and credit music) in MIDI because it just feels right for this type of game, and for me to use live instruments wherever possible for the short pieces that give more of a message (such as when the player loses or completes a level) than the in-game music (which is there to give the player something to listen to when there aren't many other interesting sounds going on). I want to try and incorporate some similar melodies with those of Achenar's to tie everything together.

So you need somebody to manage the music? Well, I'll talk to Achenar about that one. I'll do it if he doesn't want to. Any way you look at it, I will probably be putting a thread up shortly about what style music everybody had in mind, just for ideas that I may not have thought of before. My style tends to fluctuate from classical to grunge regularly, so I can happily implement almost anything.

This sounds fun. I'll make up some samples later maybe.

[Pazolli]

This sounds great, I think one of the things we really need is a short percussion solo or something to go on while the bonus screen is ticking down.

[geezusfreeek]

Okay, but how long is the bonus screen? Does it vary depending on how many points the player got?

BTW, I may be able to get my whole band to help. That'd be cool and it would save me the trouble of having to come up with a bunch of drum patterns, something I would rather not have to do. I just discovered that Virtual Drummer doesn't play right on my computer. I have to export to MIDI and play it with Quicktime to hear anything correctly. Ya, I have a drum machine, but it's a simple one and isn't programable.

[Pazolli]

Wow, a whole band helping, cool. The bonus screen is short no longer than 5 seconds. What I usually see done with bonus screens is that the music plays for a certain time and the bonus screen stays on for that time at least and longer if required. So in essence just a short riff or whatever would be cool and then I'll cater for timing the rest.

[Achenar]

Hi geezusfreeek,

It's really great to see you want to contribute.

So far I've made two short pieces for the game. These are the links for the files:

http://www.geocities.com/pacoelflaco_2000/song.mid (download it to your computer and listen to it with the loop option on in Quick Time Player to see how it sounds looped)

http://www.geocities.com/pacoelflaco_2000/gameover.mid

The links have to be copied and pasted in the address bar, otherwise they won't work.

I was thinking that the first one can be used in a continuous loop In the main screen and the option screens.

The second one could be used for the game over screen. This is just an idea, but if you want I can transcribe it for you and you can record it.

Also, I found a program called MIDIGraphy which is the one I use for making my MIDI files. You can download it from the software section in www.harmony-central.com .

Finally, I wanted to ask if there is a site where I can download something you've recorded? Just to get an idea of your music.

Bye

[geezusfreeek]

No, sorry I don't have any sites up or anything. In fact, at the moment I don't even have anything recorded right now. I hope to have some samples up soon, but they won't have drums, or if they do they will just be off my drum machine. I need to contact one of my drummer friends. Probably a bass too. And if I want a keyboard, I'll have to get another guitar player to fill in for my part. Actually, I wouldn't, but I could use that as an excuse to use his keyboard because it's a million times better than mine. He's a better guitar player than me anyway, at least as far as prepared pieces go. We're all a band, so it shouldn't be too hard.

I used to have MidiGraphy, but I wish it had a notation interface rather than just being a sequencing app. Notation is just so much easier to see what's going on, especially when you're a big music theory addict like me.:D

Right now, I'm actually trying to program another scoutbot AI on my own. It's not really very hard to program AI, IMO, just time consuming. It's about the only thing I know how to do right now because I'm still fairly new to Objective C.

Don't worry, music will come soon. I'm gonna go download your samples real quick now.

[Achenar]

First o f all, sorry for the delay in posting music for Hooptie. Lately I have had some issues to solve so I haven't had time to work on something.

Today I started writing some music and came up with two pieces usable for a game. The first one can be used when you take a powerup or something. The second one sounds more like a classical music arrangement. I'm planning to use it for my udevgame entry, so maybe you won't want to use it for hooptie (it doesn't even fit the mood). Here are the links to both:

www.geocities.com/pacoelflaco_2000/powerup.mid

www.geocities.com/pacoelflaco_2000/theme.mid

If the links send you to an empty page, copy the address and paste it into your address bar.

Hope you like them.

P.S. to Pazolli : If you want to use one or both of them for hooptie, you can download them or ask me to mail them to you.

[Kjurtyl]

Interesting music. I agree the second piece doesn't quite match up with Hooptie (at least not as far as I can hear).

Do you think you could come up with a short loopable drum piece for the bonus screen?

As you know, Geezusfreek was working on it until he was untimely called away from our project. I really think this is one screen that would benefit most from the addition of music. Most of the details on this are already in this thread, just look for em here.

How's the music engine progressing Mark?

- Kjurtyl.

[Pazolli]

Originally posted by Kjurtyl
How's the music engine progressing Mark?

- Kjurtyl.

I've made some progress with it, but not much. Might you be interested in building it a little further? QuickTime seems a reasonable choice to play the ".midi" files and music and NSSound is a nifty little class to play ".aiff" files and sound. I was thinking of putting all the sound/music related functionality in the GameJukebox class and then making a range of trigger methods. Like "[gameJukebox hooptieMoves]", "[gameJukebox levelBegins]" etc. Developing the music engine also shouldn't require too much internal knowledge of the game's insides.

Mark.

[Kjurtyl]

Hmmm, I'll look into it but I'd need some ".aiff" files to test NSSound with...

- Kjurtyl

[aarku]

I'm not really a part of Inkubator but since it's an open forum...

Why not use something like the PlayerPro library to do music? It's free and nice. Then again maybe it is just complicating a simple solution? Just something to think of.

Also I am a bit of a musician and could possibly help with some music (just for Hooptie) if your other options don't pan out. I'm no pro (just a lot of private lessons!) but I could do midi, mp3, aiff (or .wav or whatever), or possibly .mod.

-Jon

[Kjurtyl]

At this point in time, I do not think it wise nor appropriate to switch to another lib than the QuickTime lib we're already using. It works for now, but we might look into other audio libs than work better with Cocoa.

Right now we're concentrating on using midi format files, but if you have something interesting in any of those other formats, send away.

If you haven't already downloaded Hooptie I suggest you do to get ideas for music.

If you need/like more information, ask away.

-Kjurtyl.