Spy Vs. Spy

[DaveN]

I decided to write a Spy Vs. Spy remake in Flash, I think it should be possible to do that, a standard computer should be able to handle that kind of game playing in the flash engine. So, I downloaded the rom + an sms emulator ( I think that's ok if I own the original ) 'cause I don't want to run into the living room and turn on the sms everytime and also because it's easier to rip the sprites. And there's where my question comes in:

Are there any Spy vs Spy sprites in the i-net? I just found one with the sprites from the gbc version, but I don't like them so much. I don't want to rip all of them, and one day later I will see all of them on a website. But it wouldn't be a problem if I should rip them, I've got all the things I would need ;)

And another question, which version would you prefer for a remake, the one from the nes, or the one from the sms?

http://www.thehouseofgames.net/files/s/spy_vs_spy/spy_vs_spy-4.gif
or
http://www.thehouseofgames.net/files/s/spy_vs_spy/spy_vs_spy-5.gif

Oh and if you've got some other important resources/tipps that would be helpful it would be very nice if you could post them :)

I'm swiss and I'm still learning english, so if there are some huge mistakes, please tell me them :) And also, if I wrote this post into the false forum I'm sorry and I'll please a moderator to move it.

Dave

[DoG]

Ripping the sprites is not legal. You may indeed use the ROM if you own the game, but ripping off artwork is not allowed. You need to create your own artwork, or get permission from the copyright holder to use it.

[DaveN]

Ok, thanks.. Didn't know about that, I saw these sprites all over there, what's up with them? Are they all used with the permission of the owners? Or are they too old and the law's just active for a given time? And is this law only for re-using the sprites in games, movies etc.?

I mean, I could tell you really a lot of examples of mario remakes, lemmings clones, fan movies with the sprites etc.

It would be very kind if someone would answer the questions, didn't knew something about that law before, I used original selfmade graphics till now..

Dave

[backslash]

It is legal to make a clone of the game using sprites which look very much like the originals as long as you do all the work (programming and painting) yourself, or use other people's work which is clearly licensed to be reused (GPL code for example) giving the required credits and so on (read the relevant licences for specific information).
Copyright does only apply for a limited time, but since the time limit is 70 years in most countries, there isn't a computer graphic in the world which is old enough to be in the public domain this way

[unknown]

I'd say use whatever ripped sprites you want, if anyone who has the right to complain does remove them.

[AnotherJake]

Huh? No. You guys, it is NOT LEGAL to rip off someone else's creation under any normal circumstances. The only time you might actually be protected by law to do so in the US is in a formal education setting, such as using it for a science project in a public elementary school. Even then, the waters are murky. Even if there is no posted copyright of the material, it is still implied by law. Do not make the mistake of thinking you can just use any of the material as long as someone doesn't complain. That does not make it legal. You might think you would be safe by using sprites or other graphics that only sort of look like the originals, but you might very well be mistaken. From time to time game companies make sweeps of the industry, serving legal notices to people who make clones. It is an error to think that `well, everyone else makes clones, so it's safe'. It is not. Make no mistake about it - If you are ripping off someone else's idea, then they can take you to court, and you will most likely lose your shirt if you fight it. Copyright law tends to favor the copyright holder. That is why copyright was brought about in the first place.

[MattDiamond]

And it's not just a question of ripping off or replacing the artwork. The actual characters from Spy versus Spy are themselves protected property, as is the name "Spy vs Spy".

The usual way around this is to make a clone of the game. The gameplay of the original is not protected, just the actual expression of it (i.e. the code.) Give it a new name like "Counter Espionage", have characters that are evocative of the original without being copies, etc.

Ultimately if the owner of the copyright comes after you, even if you are completely legal you are probably screwed because you probably do not have the resources to fight it. So you will either have to kill your project or take steps to make it even less like the original game. So my advice is, make that decision up front. Either shut down the project or copy nothing more than the basic gameplay. Change the setting, "Monkey versus Monkey" perhaps. If it doesn't look like the original and doesn't mention the original you are safe. Of course you won't be able to market it so easily to people who enjoyed the original game, but that's the way it goes. (Just having "versus" in the title is a nice hint though.)

[jamie]

would you steal or 'rip-off' a product out of a store? If the answer is no then you shouldn't steal artwork or concepts either...

just my 2 cents.

[DaveN]

Ok, thanks for all the tipps.

But I also wrote an EMail to the developers, maybe they're as open as Capcom is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.G.E.N#Legality_of_M.U.G.E.N ) and I can use the original sprites..

If I can't I'm going to do it with some other characters. "Monkey Versus Monkey" would be a good alternative ;)

mfg Dave

Edit: @Jamie:
It isn't about "stealing" the artwork or the concepts. That's why I asked about it's possible to use them. And I really enjoy playing this game, and I'd like to get some more people know it and I thought a remake would be a good alternative. And I also can play that with some friends on their computers, or just on the computer and I can leave my Sega in the box..

[AnotherJake]

And I really enjoy playing this game, and I'd like to get some more people know it and I thought a remake would be a good alternative. And I also can play that with some friends on their computers, or just on the computer and I can leave my Sega in the box..
I used to really love playing Spy vs. Spy on the NES back in the day. They do have a new version of Spy vs. Spy for the Xbox that you can pick up down at Best Buy for $10 here in the US. It's not the same thing since it's all in 3D, but it's one of my favorite games in my collection believe it or not. It is not really a AAA title, and it is definitely more for kids, but there's something addictive to it that I find irresistible. If you haven't seen it yet, you should definitely check it out.

[NCarter]

But I also wrote an EMail to the developers, maybe they're as open as Capcom is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.G.E.N#Legality_of_M.U.G.E.N ) and I can use the original sprites..
It doesn't really come down to what the developers think, in this case. Spy vs Spy is a long running, well known cartoon from MAD magazine (see this Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spy_vs._Spy)). I'd say that using their characters and name without permission would be a very bad idea. Expect expensive lawyers to start chasing you. ;)

That aside, I'd like to see the game dynamics of Spy vs Spy revisited. That's worth a try, I'd say, and it's pretty safe to do that providing you don't pull in copyright material directly. I'd be inclined to build upon the theme to give it more originality, too.

[EvolPenguin]

How about mission based and you can choose a side?
I may be dropping off a few ideas every once in a while over here.

Alex

[DaveN]

I just got the answer on the mail I sent to First Star Software. Here are some little quotes out of the ( very friendly written ) mail:

The Spy vs. Spy name and characters are owned by MAD Magazine, not First Star
and we are not allowed to give permission to someone else, such as yourself, to
use the Spy vs. Spy name or the black and white spy characters. I am VERY sorry.
So you were right, I would have to ask the MAD Magazine..

I would like to say yes...but we legally can not. Also, the gameplay is something that we
need to protect legally. My only suggestion is that if you wanted to, you could send a version of the
game to us to review when you have it in a playable condition...withOUT the Spy vs. Spy sprites...
use something else (like regular people) instead. If it is good enough...maybe we can try to work
out something for it on a commercial=for pay basis.
I hope you can understand and forgive us,
So it IS possible to protect also the gameplay of a game? But that would be really really crappy..

@AnotherJake:
Thanks for the tipp, but 'cause I don't own a Xbox or a PS2 I can't have a look on it.. But if ( in the future.. ) I'm going to buy one, I would search for the game..

And thanks at the others for helping with this and for the tipps for some gameplay things..

mfg Dave

[NCarter]

So you were right, I would have to ask the MAD Magazine..
...and there is no way they will let you use the characters without a considerable licensing fee. :(

So it IS possible to protect also the gameplay of a game? But that would be really really crappy..
I think what they're saying in that letter is that they must routinely deny permission to everyone who asks, because they need to protect their intellectual property no matter what. That's fair enough, they can't just give permission to every person who asks nicely. ;)

There have been plenty of near-identical clones made of various games in the past (just look at Pac Man, for example), so in practice, you could probably get away with it if you avoided the original graphics. However, I'd say it's inadvisable to copy the game too closely since the developers will probably take offence if you ignore what they say in this letter.

I reckon the correct thing to do is to think a bit about how to alter the original gameplay in ways which make it different (and better!) than the original, and make a game around the ideas you come up with. I don't believe they can claim ownership of the gameplay concept of setting traps for your opponent, so if you take this fundamental feature and expand it in new directions they most likely won't bother to pursue you over it.

[ss2 cire]

Oh not fair =) I'm working on learning some 3D stuff for a Spy vs. Spy type game, in uDevGames 2004 I actually started with a Spy Vs Spy game, then switched to Gokuban (sokoban) due to multi-player issues etc... anyway, I'd like to see it too, just don't be surprised if I come up with something better ;)

[PowerMacX]

Well, the characters from Spy vs. Spy are copyrighted, so as MattDiamond said "have characters that are evocative of the original without being copies".

Like... say... this (http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/785.html). :P

Of course, then you may run into different legal problems. ;)

[igame3d]

Kudos for contacting the devs of the Spy vs. Spy game, very smart move.
They even mentioned interest in paying you should you develop something worth the money. Thats a foot in the door!

Run with it in the direction they mentioned, think up a whole new angle for the gameplay and you may have yourself a career!!!

Here's a concept, Journalist Vs. Tyrannical Spying Regime,
Your main character is a journalist trying to uncover and expose
the truth about human torture, vote fraud, bribery and fabricated intelligence justifying an illegal war while outwitting the spies sent to bug his phones
and pilfer through his possessions without a warrant, guess who your adversary is? Just read news from the US for source material.

[mic79]

Hi Dave,

I would love to see how your Spy vs Spy remake/clone is going, do you have something playable already?

Can you contact me please?

Cheers,
michiel

[unknown]

Id love to see how its going as well, but its definitly not playable seeing as its being made for a screensaver competition.

[DaveN]

Because of the answer I got a littlebit demotivated ( if that word exists in english.. ) and I couldn't work on it since the 26.2 because of multiple reasons, like school, my band etc.

But the basic gameplay is already done, you can walk around, set traps, get the case, all the other secret things, etc.

The game for the screensaver comp was too hard to make, I stopped because I didn't got enough time and because I didn't got a good idea how to code the AI..

The last things that would need to be done, would be a map, some more levels, the fighting engine when two players enter the same room, and an AI, but the most fun is playing this game with a good friend ;). And for sure the graphics would have need to be changed, at the moment they're just with the original Spy Vs. Spy things inside..

Maybe there's someone who could help me with the graphics? I could also post a demo online, but I don't know how it would work with the copyright thingy..

mfg Dave

Edit: Oh, and I don't really wan't to change anythign about the main gameplay, because I did that remake, to play the original game on the comp or on the I-Net and so I would like to make it as close as possible..

[mic79]

I'd like to help you with the graphics for sure, I'm a (graphic) designer.

I think you shouldn't worry about the copyrights too much since you're not planning to make any money with it. Like you said you just wanted to be able to play this game against other people.

This is precisely my wish too and I was also thinking if it maybe would be possible to play against each other using Application Sharing, with the application being a C64 emulator. Does anyone know if that would work?

In my opinion I'd say forget about the AI programming, sounds like a lot of work and all that's important is to be able to play against other humans. Do you have multiplayer over internet working already for your Flash game?

By the way, i already tried to email you, but my mail probably ended up in your junkmailbox or something. Could you contact me please?

[DaveN]

So, here's a small demo uploaded, if you're using Firefox, it really slows down the game..

At first, you just need to press Enter all the time to get into the game ( if you change on of the settings in the main menu it wouldn't work.. ), then use the arrow keys, M ( use/ search the things ) and N ( select traps ) to control. But as I said, this file is from the 26.2 and I didn't work too long on it..

Oh, I was too lazy to design the whole level, you can't enter the room on the top-right corner, it will make you stuck. And by now, there is just a small trace-message if you die or if you win the game, but that's really easy to change, I just don't know yet how I should make that ( small movie, jsut a win picture etc. ) And also, for a second player, I just would need to copy the mc that's used for controlling player 1 and then change all the pl1's into pl2 :)

Please give me some feedback here ;)

http://home.pages.at/davenaegeli/spyvsspy.html

Oh and online-flash multiplayer would be something new to learn for me, but I think it should be possible, I just would need to work a little bit more on the game.

[mic79]

That looks like a good start!

By the way: on my computer it seems to run just as well on IE as Firefox..
What I don't understand is that you mentioned there would be a trace-message if I'd die or win the game, but the game doesn't seem to be working that well yet. I can't place traps, so I can't die. And I cannot collect the items, so I can't win either...

Am I doing something wrong?

[DaveN]

The trace message is just going to show up, if you play it in flash debug mode. And to choose the trap, just press "N" until you found the correct trap, press "M" to select it, then walk to the target and press "M" again to set it. Your spy should giggle if you done it correct. And the items should be possible to collect, what exactly do you mean with that? You can go to the objects in the room and press "M" to search them. If there's something inside, the spy would carry it. If you then select another trap, or open another object, the thing your spy is carrying should get hidden in the room, just like in the original game.
And to carry more than one item, you need the briefcase..


But let me know if there are any else bugs..

mfg Dave

[mic79]

Aaah, I did notice the giggling, but then when I select that booby-trapped target again, nothing happens, so how would it be possible to die?

In the original game when an item is in your possession, it would blink, therefor I wasn't sure in your game if I had the items in my possession or not.

I found a little error in the right-bottom room, when trying to open the little white box on the left wall, it puts you in the other room, as if opening the door. So I guess this sensitive area is a bit too big. (with some other doors too)

One good feature from Spy vs Spy was that when you get in a position where it's possible to trigger something, then the screen would flash/blink shortly. And instead of the giggling when a trap has been set, they used a few bleeping sounds.

Do you have any idea how you could create that gun-trigger trap? Seems kinda more difficult to me to script.

All in all I'm pretty pleased to see this first demo, it does make me hungry for more though :wow:

[DaveN]

The trigger for dying is getting activated when you try to interact with the object, it just doesn't do anything at the moment.
I'm just thinking about how I should use the multiple traps. Since there were around 5 different verions of "Spy Vs. Spy", I don't exactly know, which traps I should use. In the Sms-Version ( from which I took the sprites ) the gun does exactly the same thing as the bomb, you can place it at the same places etc.
And because it would be necessary to change the menu at the right of the screen, I didn't used that for anything than just showing which item you've got.
The one with making it blink or play sound is really easy to make. And thanks for the thing with the sensitive area, I'm going to change that soon.

So, like I already said, I've built the basic engine, and now I'm thinking about what I should put in there exactly, suggestions please ;)

mfg Dave

[mic79]

Personally I prefer the gfx and item usage from the first Spy vs Spy on the C64.

I'm also curious what other people think about it...