Next Contest: Mini or 21DL?

[CarbonX]

We have been talking about doing another contest here at iDevGames but we need some feedback on a few things before we can start.

1) Should we do another "Mini" contest or a "21 Days Later"?

2) About when does everybody want this contest to start ( Anytime * March 1st * Mid-March * April 1st )

3) We want some suggestions about who to contact to be a sponsor (if it's a 21DL)

( A Mini contest would last 1 to 2 weeks)

[ss2 cire]

1) I'm ready for a 3 week contest =)
2) maybe around Spring Break, so all the school kiddies could have at least 1 week?
3) Perhaps REAL Software? Maybe not, but *shrug* it's an idea

[igame3d]

2) maybe around Spring Break, so all the school kiddies could have at least 1 week?

Not everyone has spring break at the same time, Tobi has his now and it isn't even spring, I was in the same situation back when I was in college too, 3 feet of snow on the ground everyday for "spring break", WTF?!?!

21 Days later is very very played out, I mean its a play off of 28 days later and that movie is like so 2002. Time to show some originality.
Mac Game March Madness., April Tools..Jiggy Jeux July, Summer of Loving Games, uDevASeriousCaseOfInsomnia, Hope-the-server-don't-crash-Halloween.
I dunno, just throwing around silly ideas.

It would very beneficial for everyone if these contests were consistant and not so spotty, set up a schedule that a contest will be held every X months, and it will be of contest type Z. That way people can plan for this stuff in advance, you know like "my schedule for the next three weeks blows, so i'll do a little bit of dev here, a little bit there, and slam that September contest!"

I still like the "theme" idea, but with advanced warnings and a schedule of themes, devs could pick and choose where best to put their effort. Lets say there was a racing game theme last February(which there was), and on the schedule it said "zombies" for June, I would have totally skipped racing game (and not won :) ) because I hate them, and shot for the zombie one because thats what I really want to make. Just as an example, of course.

Anyway don't plan these things two weeks before they start, its really bad form.
Set an example, get organized,

[PowerMacX]

uDevASeriousCaseOfInsomnia

That was the code name I used privately for uDG '04 :p

Anyway, I'm in favor of long contests, mainly because I would like to try something "hard" to make, and not end up with an average, unoriginal game due to dropping features to make the deadline.

[BeyondCloister]

I'm in favor of long contests.

How about having a year or six month long contest that runs in the background?

A contest of this length would allow for some serious entries to be produced plus the freedom to also have a life at the same time.

[sealfin]

I've voted for a 21 Days Later contest, but I'll throw in my support for longer contests, as being at uni means I can't really dedicate time to working non-stop on a shorter contest, whereas it is pretty easy to dip in, dip out on a longer project...

[Bachus]

Mini contests are worthless. 24 hours, 48 hours, a week, whatever. It's no fun to be working with such a strict deadline. Three weeks or a month is a much better time frame.

I vote for April 1st, as I'm busy right now and will likely be busy in March. And I'm selfish.

And I vote for zombies as a theme because zombies rock.

EDIT:

How about having a year or six month long contest that runs in the background?

A contest of this length would allow for some serious entries to be produced plus the freedom to also have a life at the same time.

That would rock hard.

[Nick]

How about having a year or six month long contest that runs in the background?

A contest of this length would allow for some serious entries to be produced plus the freedom to also have a life at the same time.
I think that's a really good idea. Having that long would allow people to work around their lives (classes, exams, work related deadlines, etc) and still have a few times here or there to really code. I also would like this because I can do mini contest games but a longer deadline would require more attention to small things like menus and other such things, IMO.

I think that we should start a six month background contest sometime in May. That way it gives people plenty of time to decide whether they want to do it, decide on themes, and will be just after all the college exams (which I know affect many people here). Just my opinion.

However I did vote for 21DL because between that and mini contests, I'd rather have a little bit of time to come up with something.

[ThemsAllTook]

Whatever it ends up being, I'll definitely participate this time. I'd prefer longer over shorter, so 21 Days gets my vote.

[akb825]

It would be nice to have a 1, 2, or maybe even 3 month contest over summer, that way those of us in school have a lot of time to finish such a project. Also, I'm hoping to finish my current project by summer, which will be the building blocks for my future projects, so hopefully it would be the first contest I could participate in. :p (I certainly like the name uDevASeriousCaseOfInsomnia, though :lol:)

[diordna]

I will summarize what I would have said had I written this "normally," because people have already said most of this.
1. 3 weeks or more is great, I need to get my creative juices flowing
2. Zombies is a great theme, or any other character-based theme such as reptiles, or a setting-based theme such as "under the refrigerator." (Come to think of it, that would be kinda cool, because who knows, maybe there's a secret passage under my refrigerator!)
3. When was uDev going to be?
4. The contest schedule needs to be more predictable.

[DoG]

2. Zombies is a great theme, or any other character-based theme such as ...


NO, it must be ZOMBIES.. They don't compare. That's just the way it is.

On another note, I am not so convinced about the length of the contest. Short contests are great from a brain storming and ideas aspect, while longer ones could be expected to sport perfect art and gameplay. But, with the longer ones, you tend to burn out if you keep at it, and real life tends to get in the way, too.

I wonder if a tiered contest would be possible, where it is divided into different phases. 1. idea 2. proof of concept/gameplay. 3. art 4. overall, with each phase given some time, and at the end of each phase teams should be forced to switch projects, eg. take on somebody elses idea and make a prototype, then do somebody else's art, and do the polish for something else in the end. Though I am not sure if that is feasible, it sounds like fun to me.

[socksy]

But then what happens when a new person enters with the idea of a zombie mmorpg? Would we have to do a proof of concept and art for it?

Otherwise, I like that idea.

[ferum]

But then what happens when a new person enters with the idea of a zombie mmorpg?

that would be a really wierd game.....

[Najdorf]

personally i believe 20 days is the ideal time for a contest.

6 months-1 year might be for a major project you really want to complete-a big game you want to sell, dont think it makes sense for a contest.

[ThemsAllTook]

I wouldn't enter if there was a Zombies theme. :(

If there's a theme, it needs to be a lot less limiting than that.

[Skorche]

I wouldn't enter if there was a Zombies theme. :(

If there's a theme, it needs to be a lot less limiting than that.

I'd definitely have agree with that. I do like the "under your refrigerator" game idea. It's not so much a genre or theme restriction, but more of an art/style restriction. I could think of some humorous things for that.

[Carlos Camacho]

>Mac Game March Madness.
Not everyone knows the NCAA.

>set up a schedule
I'd like to do that.. but it is hard to see how my schedule during the day job is going to be so far out.

>a schedule of themes
If people had a schedule, wouldn't they be working on the future contests?
(Not to say that is evil, just making an observation)

>How about having a year or six month long contest that runs in the background?
As though you guys can multitask like an Amiga on just 512kB. :p

Such a contest is fine for the "regulars", but people pop in all the time. We often get "new faces" when a contest is announced. In addition, I think many of you change ideas so much, and projects, that going too long will result in 3 entries (heck, 50% drop out of uDG!)
>But, with the longer ones, you tend to burn out if you keep at it
Yep, that is what I was trying to say. IMHO, for a LONG contest to be successul, it must have ample rewards at the end.


>When was uDev going to be?
Summer. I need to look at the Japanese holiday schedule.

>he contest schedule needs to be more predictable.
See above... But I agree.

I'll share what I had in mind in my next post...

[Carlos Camacho]

Rules in a Nutshell
----------------

1. Download the "Games Graphics Pack" (link is hidden) and "Games Sounds Pack" (link is hidden). These two downloads have various goodies from my vast collection of game assets.

2. You can use any tool, IDE, library that you want. The final game can be 2D or 3D, but must run on Mac OS X.

3. The official start of this contest is the date/time of this post. It will end (allow the masses to decide)

4. If you wish to compete, (removed until start of contest)

5. Each forum member will be able to cast 4 votes. In addition to the votes you receive, you'll be able to gather "bonuses" if...

* If your game is a "tribute" or an enhanced version of any of the following games, I'll grant you an extra 3 votes:
<list removed> (Why these games? I love 'em, and want to play them again! :p )

* If your game runs on PowerPC AND Intel Mac OS X, I'll grant you an extra 2 votes.

* If your entry's game assets are 70% from the above downloads, I'll grant you an extra 2 votes. (Whether you qualify is up to the community.)

* If your entry is related to sports, I'll grant you an extra 4 votes. (The Mac is in dire need of sports!)

* If your game is smaller than 1MB, I'll grant you an extra 2 votes.

* If your game isn't about zombies, I'll give you 1,000,000 points.

6. If you have questions, I'll minus 1,000,000 points from you.

7. Since this community has alway promoted education, I'll like to ask for entrants to release their code under an open source license for the benefit of all. (I figure our last contest was closed source, so "you guys owe me one." ) BTW, Don't worry what others may think of your code.

8. Carlos (the Editor-in-Chief), his wife, and two cats have final say in regards to contest rules.

[Carlos Camacho]

As you might guess, some of those "bonuses" are jokes... and of course I haven't "locked" their values in stone. Basically, with the help of clever people, I would make up a list of say 5 or 10 bonus "awards" that can be picked up.

The idea of the game assets is because with short contests, it is often hard to code and make game assets, so I'd like to promote unqiue uses of the sounds and graphics I have. (There is good variety)

Well, I'm at work now, so I can't flesh this out too much... Hopefully we can come to a good compromise on various aspects of a new mini contest.

Cheers

[akb825]

Good to see that there will be a uDevGames this year. (certainly answers my hope for an up to 3 month contest this summer :p) BTW, do you have any plans for the uDevGames domain? (since it still re-directs to the forums...)

[Bachus]

To be blunt:

Restricting games to a set of art/sound assets is lame. Not requiring the use of said assets, but giving bonus votes for using them (effectively requiring you to use them) is just as lame. It stifles creativity, and several of us don't need them. Plus, it looks bad to outsiders when all the games look and sound the same. Look at uDG 2003 when half the entries all used the Happy Song from one of the audio packs available at the time. I got sick of that song *real fast*.

The forum voting idea is totally *not* lame. Public Voting Doesn't Work™.

[diordna]

Bonuses are good, but basing them on your personal preference is bad. I don't want to play 4 different Tron clones.

[Skorche]

For a 21 day game, I would totally have to disagree with bachus. For someone like me who has no clue how to create nice looking assests, that seems like a nice idea. Then you can spend you time honing the game play instead.

If you really wanted to, you could create better assets after the contest is done.

EDIT: After thinking about it, maybe this isn't such a great idea as it would restrict the types of people who would enter.

[Carlos Camacho]

>Good to see that there will be a uDevGames this year.
It's on the board, but will require the combined effort of everyone -- more so this year than any other year!

>BTW, do you have any plans for the uDevGames domain?
Yes, I'll work on that as soon as I get iDevGames domain sorted out.

>Plus, it looks bad to outsiders when all the games look and sound the same.
Her are my thoughts: Each contest has a different mission. uDevGames is about educating, and giving back to the community, etc. OMG was about getting noticed. Short contests are more to keep people engaged, and to hone their skills. uDG and OMG are contests that reach out beyond our community -- this longer time frame, and the hope for more polish. Short contests like 21DL are more inward contests. "Inward" contests take a great deal of stress off of me. My feeling is that short contests should focus on coding, and small fun games. Some devs might be eager to code, design, compose, etc, but with short time frames, that isn't feasible for everyone.

Anyways, I think providing game assets won't produce 100 Tetris clones. There is a lot of room for creativity. Of course, you are free to go your own route and do everything yourself. Actually, CMG ran a Missile Command contest once. I thought that was a great idea. As you can see how different programmers tackle the same problem... very educational me thinks.

>Then you can spend you time honing the game play instead.
Yes, that is the overall idea.

[Marjock]

Originally Posted by socksy
But then what happens when a new person enters with the idea of a zombie mmorpg?

that would be a really wierd game.....

www.urbandead.com

-Mark

[Shunter]

If your game is smaller than 1MB, I'll grant you an extra 2 votes

You forgot " If your game has less than 1000 lines of code, I'll grant you an extra 3 votes" :p

[igame3d]

I don't want to play 4 different Tron clones.
I DO!

Light Cycles, Tanks, Jai-Lai, Discs, Maze Chases, Breakout, Hacking, Stealth, "thats TRON he fights for the users."

There seems to be way to much debate every single contest on length of contest, the solution should be this simple:
State the contest entry deadlines well in advance, up to three months in advance, end the silly requirement
of having to only dev in the 90 or 21 or 7 days or whatever, since I know for a fact past winners
have won on entries that started development far earlier than the suggested time period.

Just allow devs to put in whatever time they have for their project and enter whatever contests they
can when they feel their work is ready for such a challenge.

Planning and stating the "themes" ahead of time will allow people to have off the wall new
ideas while they are working toward the most current contest, or when they are in the shower, or whatever.
Say you're working on the zombie theme for two months, and you realise with no time to spare that zombies actually bore you (now that their are dozens of games with zombies), but this game you are working on with another two months of dev would be the ultimate in insect vs picnic people RTS..instead of just shunting the idea to the side you can actually start planning for that particular theme contest and do some idea and code work to that end.

Now say you are a total noob, never done dev, you come along to this site because you hear about the current contest, its already too late for you to even start, but you see a list of themes for upcoming contests, and "Amusement Park Berzerking Qbert Tycoons" catches your imagination, and its eight months off, that gives you a clear idea of where to start and figuring out what you are actually going to try to accomplish, instead of "I'd like to make a MMORPG".

Say you're an artist with no coding skill and you see one of these themes, and you draw up some graphics then post, "Ok i've gone some concept work done, now I need a coder to bring this bad boy to life", instead of not even knowing what the coders want to code, or being told "we have our own ideas go learn to program N00B", or the coders saying "help I need an artist" halfway into a contest deadline.

You really can't go wrong with planning ahead. If the whole planning and stating the plan ahead of time flunks after 18 months, you live, learn and come up with something new based on the experience.

Themes by the way should be kind of esoteric, not "Clone game X", but more like "hopping around the 3D pyramid" (qbert) or "get out of a maze alive"(berzerk,doom,marathon,etc) or "they want to eat you" (pacman, zombies,etc) or "one ring to rule them all" (reactor, gyruss, tempest, etc)...I think you get the idea. But check out photoshop fridays at somethingawful.com and the worth1000.com contest for how a simple theme can explode into the wildest zaniest ideas.

[Skorche]

Setting only a end date makes a lot of sense. People might not start programming or create assets before the start date, but it's nearly impossible not to think up ideas.

I'll also reiterate that I think that having a zany theme instead of a genre restricting theme is a good idea.

[ccccc]

look at the graph, you don't have to say anymore, 21 days later wins et-less every other person on the forum suddenly decides to vote against it.

[akb825]

Quite frankly, 22 votes isn't much to go on for a statement like that. However, from the posts here, I think most people agree that they want to have a longer contest.

[igame3d]

Yeah and the voting was too much like the American system, without the cheating, ie, only two options and not the best ones.

[PowerMacX]

"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos" – H. S.

[ThemsAllTook]

Quite frankly, 22 votes isn't much to go on for a statement like that.
It does mean that there are at least 22 people who would most likely enter the contest...

[BeyondCloister]

It does mean that there are at least 22 people who would most likely enter the contest...

So that's what 21DL stands for - 21 Developers Later ;)

[Leisure Suit Lurie]

It does mean that there are at least 22 people who would most likely enter the contest...

Or it could mean 18 TBAs and 4 entries.

[whogben]

Or it could mean I looooove kiwis.

Damn it all!

[EvolPenguin]

Mmmm, Kiwis.

I would also like a longer contest with a schedule of contests etc.

Alex

[gatti]

Yes, I kind of agree about the whole schedule of contests approach.

On a personal note: From my initial thoughts, it seems that uDevGames should generally happen during the summer time (June 15 - Sept 15) when most students are off from school. This will help give them a great deal of time to fully explore their skills for this 3 month contest. (User voting)

OMG 2006, 2007, etc, could possibly become a yearly event and allow the current year's uDevGames entries or any Mac game-based entries that clearly are OMG. Voting will happen in December so that, if possible, the contest can be promoted at the January MacWorld. (Judge/panel voting and sponsor driven)

The 21 days later contests and other shorter contests could continue to be unscheduled events. (User voting)

Come to think of it... perhaps my post should be somewhere else?

[DoG]

Yes, I kind of agree about the whole schedule of contests approach.

On a personal note: From my initial thoughts, it seems that uDevGames should generally happen during the summer time (June 15 - Sept 15) when most students are off from school. This will help give them a great deal of time to fully explore their skills for this 3 month contest. (User voting)

Just on a sidenote, my semester doesn't finish until mid July, but only starts in late October. I think having the contest last until the first few weeks of the next semester is a better idea than to start at a point where people still have exams to study for. For me, at least, that would be preferable.

[Taxxodium]

Well, if it happens this summer count me out. I won't be near my computer for 6 weeks and after that I'll need full week to recover from a 7 hour jetlag :p
In 2 weeks I have vacation (and I think most Europeans), not sure if I'll have to do anything for school but we could hold a short contest.

Maybe another vectorized contest, that was cool!

[hams_]

so... is there going to be a 21 day contest or not? or did it already start?

[Bachus]

uDG is in a couple months, but no contest has happened since OMG.

[lightbringer]

I would like to see something happen before uDG, preferably a mini-contest or two.

[kemalyun]

As I told Carlos before, I'm ready to sponsor a 21DL contest with some nice prizes. After the time is set, I'll supply details about the prizes, theme and judging.

[socksy]

The 21 days contest is called carlosvision and can be found in the contests forum.