Intel Mac mini

[Zwilnik]

Just ordered the low spec one as it looks like it'll be the slowest Intel Mac you'll ever get (which makes it ideal for testing games and working as a UB target machine). The good news is that it has gigabit ethernet, so it'll be great for streaming movies and should be fairly practical for distributed network builds in XCode or working as a network node in Logic. It also looks like it now has 2 memory slots, which is an improvement over the G4 one.

On the downside, it's go an integrated Intel graphics chip with 64mb of the main memory shared for VRAM. Our worry is that this could be the first Intel Mac to not be able to run our older games under Rosetta fast enough. Although in theory it should be ok as they were min-specced for G3 500 with an ATI 128 or something. Not expecting it to be much good at Quake 4 though ;)

[OneSadCookie]

Aspyr's Game Agent is going to need updating :)

I'm interested whether Apple is supporting the ARB_vertex_buffer_object extension on this hardware... if not, I'm going to have to update Outnumbered :(

[Zwilnik]

Is there a spec sheet anywhere for the Intel G950 or whatever it's called ?

Glenda Adams mentioned on IMG that it's not got vertex shaders but has half decent pixel shader support.

[OneSadCookie]

Intel product page: http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/gma950/
Benchmarks: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2427

If it doesn't have hardware vertex processing, I don't think Apple will export ARB_vertex_buffer_object. That's been their criterion so far.

[WhatMeWorry]

I just read an ExtremeTech Article where they had compared the
GMA950 against an Nvidia<something-or-other> discrete component.
The Nvidia chip was some funny number that I didn't recognize and it
was kinda low number - so it must be slow, right? :) They said the
Nvidia chip could be had for about $60.

Well this chip just creamed Intel's integrated solution. I mean just
beat it silly over the head with a rubber chicken. It was embarrassing.
It was pathetic. It was you get the idea.

What does the current Mac-mini have in it: a ATI7500 or 9200?
Isn't this a BIG step down for gaming on the Mac-mini? To me, this
is saying that Apple has given up on gaming - at least on the Mac-
mini. Or am I being overly pessimistic.

The dual core, however, is anothing thing completely :)

[OneSadCookie]

The i950 is an upgrade over the 9200 in the sense that it supports CoreImage in hardware. I suspect that as far as gaming is concerned, it's slower, though I don't actually have any data to back that up :)

[Zwilnik]

It looks like the main feature of that particular GPU is that it's specced for HD video playback. Any gamers on a Mac mini are more likely to be casual gamers rather than wanting to play the nearly latest PC FPS games so it's within boundaries, so it'll be enough for that.

[OneSadCookie]

Most important benchmark for games is usually fill rate. The Intel product page claims 1.6Gpixels/sec. This page: http://www.a1-electronics.net/Graphics_Cards/ATI/2003/ATI_Radeon9600Pro.shtml claims that the 9600 pro does 1.6Gpixels/sec, so I guess the two are probably pretty similar for games, and it suggests that this new card will be substantially faster than the previous 9200.

[arekkusu]

I'm interested whether Apple is supporting the ARB_vertex_buffer_object extension on this hardware...

We are exporting VBO.

Also supported:
+ pbuffer
+ FBO
+ PBO
+ depth texture/shadow
+ ARB vp/fp
+ GLSL vs/fs

There is no HW TCL, so vp/vs will always be SW emulated. fp/fs are in HW, the limits are roughly equivalent to a 9600.

FYI, I'm going to hold off on updating my GLInfo page for a while.

[OneSadCookie]

We are exporting VBO.

Cool, that's a help... I wasn't looking forward to retrofitting a non-VBO path :)

[PowerMacX]

Overall a nice update, too bad that the $499 entry model is gone now.

- 4 USB ports - finally! :)
- The G4 model had: (thank you Google cache!)
> Headphone/audio line out
The new model has:
> Built-in speakers, combined optical digital audio input/audio line in, combined optical digital audio output/headphone out
- Gigabit Ethernet
- Double Layer burning on the Core Duo model (not that important but...)
- Pixel Shaders in hardware
- Front Row - DUH Apple! ;)

Also, anyone knows if this is new for Front Row?:
In addition, Bonjour sharing now makes it possible to access shared music, photos and video playlists from other computers on your network.

[KittyMac]

Also, anyone knows if this is new for Front Row?:

Yes. The version of Front Row which came with the iMacs could not access multimedia on other computers.

[Skorche]

Anyone else disappointed by the fact that it just got more expensive? There was all this talk that the Intel switch would lower prices. With 3 Intel machines out now, it's pretty clear that that is not the case.

Staying the same price would have been understandable as it is a bit of an upgrade, but 20% more? Hrmm....

[OneSadCookie]

I was a little surprised that they're charging more. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that it costs them more, but I thought that they'd want to keep the $500 price point, and would take less profit to keep it.

Given that it's all standard PC bits now, it really begs the question "where's the PC in this form factor / price bracket?"

[OneSadCookie]

Answering my own question, the AOpen mini-pc seems to fit the bill. You can play with configuration options here:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/myaopen/MINIPC.html

but, long story short, you pay $100 more than the low-end Mac Mini for a slightly worse system, and that's without Windows...

[PowerMacX]

It would be interesting to see the Core Solo performance numbers, particularly for Rosetta. Also, will Apple adopt the "1.5 Solo & 1.66 Duo" configurations for the future Intel iBook? (MacBook 'noPro'?)

[PowerMacX]

Answering my own question, the AOpen mini-pc seems to fit the bill. You can play with configuration options here:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/myaopen/MINIPC.html

but, long story short, you pay $100 more than the low-end Mac Mini for a slightly worse system, and that's without Windows...

I like the tag line:
"Real mini .... The most mini PC in the world.

Yeah, "Real" :rolleyes:

[WhatMeWorry]

Maybe Apple wants to clear out their G5 Mac-mini inventory. And maybe they are using the increased price to put an air-brake on the initial demand. To the people who just gotta have a new duo Mac-mini 100 bucks is nothing. Then once the production line, shipping line and mind share is proven then a rising demand can be coordinated with a price cut. You can always cut the price; You can't raise it. So too high is a prudent move. Besides, as OSC so succinctly pointed out, it is cheaper than any comparable PC.

I've been following the PC web sites and, compared to the Gx<->Pentiumx arguments of old, there seems to be a subtle shift in mindset. Empirically at least, there seems to be more people willing to now compare the systems with a more open mind. I'm amazed how there seems to be more people speaking up for Mac/OSX on the PC web sites. I was rather indifferent to Apple's Intel move, but I like it more everyday.

Another data point. This morning on the radio they mentioned a rumor that Apple was going to buy out Disney. I don't believe it but the fact that it even hit the airwaves tells you something. Oh, and the DJ on the commute home mentioned over and over again iTunes. You can't buy that kind of advertisement. Haven't heard anyone say "Vista Vista Vista". Guess I should add 3 more to make the 6 kinds of Vistas one will be able to buy :)

My mother-in-law (who has this nasty Dell Dimension) was visiting us last week and she brought us 2 CDs and a DVD of old family jpegs and 16mm movies that she had paid some company to make. I only learned of this after the fact. They sat down in the den and stuck in the silver platters in the DVD player. Nothing worked or course. They called me. I was confused at first and then I said to my self, "screw this, I've got a mac mini". Long story short, we watched jpegs and movies off my mac-mini from my sweet 19" LCD no problem. I moved the mouse to bring up the control icon from a full screen mode and my mother-in-law almost had an orgasm. "How did you do that?" she said.

Oh well, I'll stop rambling. But Apple stock is around 70 and where is Dell and Microsoft's stock.


Btw, I admire Apple, but I still want a Mac mini twice- hell, three times as tall- with an AMD 64 (whatever) with an ATI 1900 all for $1200.
Ok, the 1900 is going for $600 dollars so lets say $1500. Seems I'd be happy with such a system for say - 5 years?

[Danlab]

crap !
i hope the graphic card is better than an ati9000

Apple sux les fraises !
i should receive my Mac mini the 7th ( its a crap but i need it for testing :-( )

[Dan Potter]

but, long story short, you pay $100 more than the low-end Mac Mini for a slightly worse system, and that's without Windows...

From what I've seen that's pretty well always been the case between comparable Mac/PC hardware (exception CPU differences). The real problem Apple is going to have if they want to compete at all in the "low end" area is that a Mac Mini is definitely not the lowest possible spec'd PC. They are total crap, but it *is* possible to buy a PC for $300 or so. To a lot of people it doesn't matter how good it is, it works for email and web browsing.

Maybe they don't care though :)

[akb825]

This looks good for having a Core Duo in an iBook equivalent, but doesn't look good for having an actual graphics card installed. :( I really hope that they at least have an option to have an actual graphics card, because I want to have an iBook (equivalent) for next school year when I'm no longer living on campus. It doesn't have to be as powerful as a MacBook Pro since it won't be my main computer, but I want to do some testing on it, and I would like to be able to test everything on it, including any high-end settings I offer.

[arekkusu]

I would like to be able to test everything on it, including any high-end settings I offer.

The only realistic way to test everything is to buy one of everything...

[akb825]

By everything I mean everything my programs and games can do. I suppose that with an integrated chip it would let me test that aspect of it, but if it's limited so that some higher settings on my game can't be done, then I can't test those settings on an Intel Mac if that's all I have.

[arekkusu]

And if you get a MacBook Pro and test your high quality settings on it, you still don't know how your app runs on a GeForce 7800.

I'm just saying that you can't test everything on one machine.

[akb825]

I'm assuming that the graphics cards are standard enough. (probably not incredibly safe, but oh, well) However, if I have something that's endian or architecture dependent, that's a different matter. It likely won't come into play except for speed issues, but it's also an excuse to say that I don't want an integrated graphics even though it won't be my main computer. :cry: It would be very sad indeed if they have, say, a $1300 top-of-the-line MacBook with integrated graphics, but if you want real graphics you have to go all the way up to $2000 for the MacBook Pro.

[funkboy]

Test (and develop!) on the lowest specced hardware you can live with, because your games will be that much better. If they can run on slow stuff, the fast hardware will be taken care of no sweat.

I am excited by these mac minis, actually, and cannot wait to see the benchmarks, especially the video and graphics benchmarks. Maybe the integrated video won't be so bad... i mean, it is running HD video after all, which is better than my current Mac Mini can do. I'd think about getting one... wonder how much a Mac mini is selling for on ebay these days?

[akb825]

I'm hoping to have most of my stuff scale down quite a bit. I have an iMac G3 600 with a Rage 128 Pro 16 MB for the ultra low end, and my mom's iBook G3 800 with a Radeon 7500 32 MB (I think) for testing. I suppose you're right, but I would still prefer a true graphics card. ;) (since the iBook has a Radeon 9550 as compared to the mini's 9200, it just might)

From what I've seen about the integrated graphics card, it's a bit better than the 9200. However, I find it interesting that the transform and lighting as well as the vertex shaders are in software. If Knights of the Old Republic comes out with a Universal Binary, than it would be interesting to see the performance of it, since I know it's rather vertex-shader heavy. (enough to make the Radeon 8500-9200 slow to a crawl in certain places when the shaders were too long for the cards)

[Zwilnik]

Test (and develop!) on the lowest specced hardware you can live with, because your games will be that much better. If they can run on slow stuff, the fast hardware will be taken care of no sweat.

I am excited by these mac minis, actually, and cannot wait to see the benchmarks, especially the video and graphics benchmarks. Maybe the integrated video won't be so bad... i mean, it is running HD video after all, which is better than my current Mac Mini can do. I'd think about getting one... wonder how much a Mac mini is selling for on ebay these days?

Exactly why I'm getting this one, and why my iMac G5 was the first, low end 1.6Ghz one. Essentially I'll have the lowest powered G5 and Intel Mac that Apple will ever do (although my iMac G5 will probably go off to replace mum's temperamental G4 iMac soon). That way I can write stuff that I know will work well on the lowest specced machines and thus work better on anything better. The G5 specific extras in ToySight Gold for instance were tuned to work well on the iMac G5.

At the moment it looks like our Mac mini and Dan's one are in a race to see which one gets to us first (both shipped today). However it looks like Dan's one somehow got misdirected to his old address (insert evil laugh here) so there's a good chance I'll get mine first :)

[Bjoernke]

Test (and develop!) on the lowest specced hardware you can live with, because your games will be that much better. If they can run on slow stuff, the fast hardware will be taken care of no sweat.

You might want to check out this development journal entry of a pc game (http://www.galciv2.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=164&AID=103280).
basically they had crashes on high end machines only, until they realised that the game runs at 300 fps and overheated the GPU's, and they didn't ran into this problem 'couse they only tested on low end hardware :D

[akb825]

:lol: wow. Luckily I have my PowerMac for high end testing. :p (dual 2.7 GHz and Radeon X800) There was actually one OMG entry (Retrovirus) that wouldn't work on my computer since it was too fast, and the developer had to release a patch for it so I could run it.

[DoG]

You might want to check out this development journal entry of a pc game (http://www.galciv2.com/Forums.aspx?ForumID=164&AID=103280).
basically they had crashes on high end machines only, until they realised that the game runs at 300 fps and overheated the GPU's, and they didn't ran into this problem 'couse they only tested on low end hardware :D

Luckily, macs are not thrown together by complete morons, so they won't usually overheat. Also, as any sane person would tell you, it is a good idea to cap your framerate anyway.

[Danlab]

My Mac mini is on the road, but where is the road ?

http://danlabgfiles.propagation.net/idev-share/macmini.jpg



:lol: :lol: hoooo im sooo exited about thiisss computer :lol: :lol:

[Zwilnik]

My Mac mini is on the road, but where is the road ?

http://danlabgfiles.propagation.net/idev-share/macmini.jpg



:lol: :lol: hoooo im sooo exited about thiisss computer :lol: :lol:

This is how Santa makes the money for all the toys he delivers. He freelances to the couriers for extortionate fees when their ground based delivery trucks can't cope with the snow ;)

Our Mac mini is still in Hong Kong according to the TNT tracker.

[Danlab]

the intel-mini core solo is finally arrived today

Like expected the "video card" is a big crap for games
i made some test and it look similare to the radeon 9000
the Radeon9000 is not a big crap, but making computer in 2006 with these amazing video card power is not kick ass.
sort of big step of 3 year back

nothing impressive in that pc, it work well, just got frontrow crashed the first time and it started to use 40% of the cpu

i already noticed some few things with opengl on this intel pc:
> non power of 2 texture are not workin
> i made some test with GLSL and its unusable on this machine (need to do more tests, pixelx, vertex shader... ect)
> got some probleme with my opengl 2d ortho sprite thing, its really slow

[Skorche]

What? No rectangle textures? Ahh!

I've been assuming that all modern computers would be able to support them. I've been using them almost exclusively for my 2D stuff.

Even the old machines in the Csci lab with integrated video supports them. (at least under Linux)

[OneSadCookie]

ARB_texture_rectangle is supported by the GMA 950, at least in theory:
http://lists.apple.com/archives/mac-opengl/2006/Mar/msg00010.html

I don't know what precise issues Dan is seeing, but QE uses rectangle textures extensively; it seems unlikely they'd be broken.

[arekkusu]

Rectangle is supported. NPOT is not. Rectangle != NPOT.

[OneSadCookie]

but NPOT isn't supported anywhere on the Mac yet, so I'm assuming by "NPOT not supported", Dan meant rectangle ;)

[Zwilnik]

Just got our Mac mini Core solo and I'm glad to report that Airburst Extreme plays on it at full speed (although the disk access is sluggish) and I've successfully tested ToySight Gold in 'no camera' mode (testing with camera later).

It's running pretty much as if it was a decent G3 iBook, but min spec for both games is a G3 600, so we get away with that one. The only minor issue is that fog doesn't seem to work.

So it looks like the Mac mini won't be much of a gaming machine, but there are some games that will run on it ;) and the good news is that we don't have to do UB versions of our old games and can get on with writing the new ones :)

[gatti]

Zwilnik or anybody else with a new Intel iMac, can you quickly test El Ballo on it and let me know how it runs? It seems to run perfectly on my wife's new 20" Intel iMac, but now I'm wondering about the MacMini since it has an integrated video card.

[Danlab]

i made a test with Elballo and it work well
its just slow when loading things

i alos tested Outnumbered on the intel-mini and it work well too

[gatti]

Thanks Dan for testing El Ballo on the Intel MacMini. Glad to hear that it runs.

(Completely off topic... I really wish Apple makes a tablet-based laptop soon. Perhaps it can come with a drawing application that re-flows for vertical and landscape formats. It can also have an icon that displays a virtual keyboard for text entry when the keyboard is not accessible due to the laptop being closed.)

[arekkusu]

The only minor issue is that fog doesn't seem to work

What sort of fog (fixed, vertex, pixel? linear, exp?) What application?

[Zwilnik]

What sort of fog (fixed, vertex, pixel? linear, exp?) What application?

The basic Open GL fog effect. I use it in the 2 3D games in ToySight Gold. It looks like the chip just ignores the fog and draws the background colour instead.

[monteboyd]

If either of you guys get a chance to test Slope Rider I'd be happy to hear the results. ;)

[Zwilnik]

If either of you guys get a chance to test Slope Rider I'd be happy to hear the results. ;)

Downloading V1.04 now. I'll let you know :)

[monteboyd]

Downloading V1.04 now. I'll let you know :)

Thanks! :) Email me if you want a registration code.
Slope Rider uses standard OpenGL fog too so it will be interesting to see if it also doesn't work.

[arekkusu]

Could you also try glview (http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/) and check 'Use Fog' in the test tab?

[Zwilnik]

ok, it looks like fog is actually happening (seems to be pretty close in Sloperider, but the game runs at full speed with no apparent problems).

Seems to work in glview.

Looking at it again in FlySight and it looks like the fog is there, but it's using a different colour to what the fog was set to (possibly the background clear colour). Odd but not critical.

[monteboyd]

Thanks for checking that Zwilnik! :)

[codemattic]

Zwilnik & Dan,

How well do some of the bigger PPC-only apps (like Adobe Photoshop, etc...) run on the intel mini? Is the speed ok? Are there pauses and/or thrashing?

thanks

[Zwilnik]

Zwilnik & Dan,

How well do some of the bigger PPC-only apps (like Adobe Photoshop, etc...) run on the intel mini? Is the speed ok? Are there pauses and/or thrashing?

thanks

I haven't been testing those on mine. It's being used to test our games and act as our living room media centre as well as (eventually when I get around to it) taking over as our central file server. With only 512mb of memory though and running under Rosetta I can't see Photoshop being much use on it (and the various reviewer tests of it seem to back me up on that).