Comments about this please (Another MMO idea)

[Dirox]

Hi Everyone.

Joseph,

Perhaps you can help me, i know there are a lot of questions on the board right now but i also have a few if you would.

I have an idea for an MMO. Actualy its more of a diplomatic statagy type MMO RP game.
For about 2 year I would stay up all night thinking of ideas for this game, which at the time was suposed to be a board game. Coincidentally at the same time I was playing both Morrowind and Oblivion of the Elderscrolls series. Rather than play them I would mostly use something called the "Construction Set" which came with the game and allowed you to change the game as you saw fit, along with code. It had its own language and that was my first experiance with code. I spent countless hours coding new things into those games, and when I mentioned this to my father he told me I should learn VB since he was taking a course. I wasn't very enthused about it. as time passed I realised my board game was too complex and it just wouldn't be playable, there was too much too it and so i gave up on the idea, very sad. Just a few weeks ago my friend said to me, "man i would love to make a RPG board game..". Thank god for it, he rekindled the flame. And its a funny thing, you realise answers so much faster when your explaining the problem to someone else. The solution was simple, this isn't a board game it's a computer game. And so ive been learning VB since.

Now, i came about this forum doing a google search to see what others thought about making an MMO with VB. I realise that I have to learn everything on my own, but i am no artist, and I have very little experiance with making a game from scratch.

My Idea:
MMO game where you are in a world with thousands of other people with no real direction.
As you venture on you meet people make companions, start a guild/clan make a village, eventualy a town, a castle. Wage wars on other cities for land. Diplomacy. People living in this world as a black smith, assassin, farmer, knight, general. Or you log on every day as one of the lucky few who have had the influence to become a King of a great city, and command the respect of 2000 other online users who would die for you, as once you die, you restart the game as a lonely nobody at the bottem of the ladder. Therfore, every life is its own, when you are logged off you sleep. What if you die in your sleep? This depends on how much protection you have, how many enamies you've made ect. Some users are vampires who seek to suck you dry in your sleep, or otherwise convert you into their brotherhood. You could be a wanted man in many places with a large bounty onyour head, finding salvation only with your band of underdogs. The bottem line is that this would be a world where anything is posible, you could be drinking in a tavern with some freinds, and the next day you find out you are going to be defending the city from and attack of several hundred, and above all else, defend the king/leader. Its much less general than this. This is the big picture. I have pages and pages of ideas.

Now know it sounds like a lot, but it would not be a highly graphical game, something between Diablo II and something for super nintendo. Going with game play and content over graphix. General atmosphere or feeling is that your in the place where you mean nothing living a simple life, but also knowing that by assassination a king, or by persuading the othorities, can change the world.

Questions i have:
what does it cost to keep server for this? or do i need one?
who's the **** is with me
If nothing else, words of encuragement
I would love to hear feedback

[OneSadCookie]

I typed a lengthy, considerate, polite reply to this, but Safari threw it away, so here's the Cliff Notes -- since you've clearly read and ignored the sticky, you'll ignore this anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter if it's a little harsh:

VB sucks, learn a real programming language. This is a Mac programming board, anyway.

You don't stand a shit-show in hell of making this "game". You're in dire need of a severe reality check. If you work really hard toward your goal, and are extraordinarily talented, you might be in a position to begin a project half as ambitious as this in as little as a decade. Good luck.

[akb825]

What he said. This sounds to be much more complex then a game like World of Warcraft. That game took a team of talented programmers, artists, etc. many years to create. You are just beginning to learn VB, which frankly sucks, and basically is incapable of making a game such as this. You would have to take a few years to learn the technical knowledge necessary to make such a game. After that, it would then take many more years to actually code everything and make all the content. You would be lucky to get it done in 3 years if you had a large dedicated team working for you. Well over a decade if you do it alone.

I'm sorry that I don't have any encouraging words to give you, but there are a lot of people who go through here who want to do something like this, and have between no and very little technical knowledge and ability when it comes to making a game. And they all want to build an MMORPG straight off. (why is it always a MMORPG?) It's great to dream, but it's also necessary to face reality. It may be harsh, but the reality is you have about a 0.0001% chance of completing this project as it stands. Now if you were to suddenly find yourself in a position with a team of dedicated and talented programmers, artists, etc. and you were the one calling the shots, then yes, you certainly could get this done in a reasonable (read: a few years) amount of time. As things stand, reality is harsh.

[Dirox]

Jolly good,

Thanks for the quick replies guys, and yes it is fun to dream =)

Should i learn how to use VB first of start learninghow to use C++ or something else?

Aside from it being imposible does it sound like a fun game?
Would this be something you would help with? (i know you just sighed)

I never expected to make this in even a few years, maybe around 5 years, the graphix are 2d

plz tell me more, point me in the right direction, where doi start and why.

thx in advance

ps. I may start a little operation with 3 other lads, whom i've never met but ive been talking to them for a year, one is an artist, another a writer, and the third is well, my leading henchman.

[Bjoernke]

If you want to do a simple game, you can do it with Basic (however you won't be able to do a Mac game with Visual Basic). If you want a high performance server like needed for a MMORPG you need a lower level language for that. C++ is one of those. Your client however can even be in Flash, it has been done before.

As for your claim it would be simple: As a programmer you should know that everything in your game needs programming. EVERYTHING!!! If you want a small flower it has to be programmed. Want your player be able to have a kingdom? Needs programming. Vampire? Programming.
But that's not all. every concept drags around a huge amount of code in the background. For example a Vampire: Programming for steering while flying and walking, collision detection (if he hits a wall), physics (for realistic movement), flapping cape (more physics), fangs that detract, raising his arms, white skin colour, bowing (to suck), collision with sleeping victim, increasing power bar (to show how he drains his victim)... And of course all the stuff I haven't thought about yet.

finally a small thinking game:

It takes 5 years to do a simple game with 4 people.
It takes 5 years to do a AAA game with 50-100 people.
It takes 5 years to do a MMORPG game with hundreds of people.

So taking from this approximations you want to do a MMORPG with 4 people, so you need 375 years (assuming a 300 people team needs 5 years). In other words: 5 years ARE a few years.

[OneSadCookie]

Should i learn how to use VB first of start learninghow to use C++ or something else?

It doesn't matter where you start, but the simpler your first language, the easier you'll get into programming. My recommendations for first language are Java (1.4, not 1.5) or Python. They're simple, and will teach you important design concepts faster than many other languages.

Aside from it being imposible does it sound like a fun game?

Not at all. In fact, it doesn't sound like a game at all. It sounds like life, only without any of the rewards.

Would this be something you would help with? (i know you just sighed)

If I believed that you were truly talented, and had the vision and ingenuity to lead such a project, and that the result would actually be fun, and were paying a good salary, then... maybe.

I never expected to make this in even a few years, maybe around 5 years, the graphix are 2d

The graphics are the least of your worries here; they make up a tiny portion of the work that needs to be done. Also, 2D graphics will most likely hinder, rather than help -- they don't greatly simplify the programming, and they do *massively* increase the art requirements.

Five years to develop the game sounds reasonable, with a team of 50 or so experienced people.

[AnotherJake]

Dirox, just attempting to learn how to program for a couple months will make it clear to you that your dreams for that game are basically unattainable in a lifetime. It is interesting/amusing/annoying to those of us who know what it takes, that virtually anyone who hasn't tried it, doesn't have a clue as to how difficult game making is -- you're not the only one in the dark about it. We aren't trying to dash your dreams, but rather help you get on the path of game making reality.

I noticed that you like playing Elder Scrolls. I too am a huge fan of the series. The latest I played was Oblivion on the Xbox 360. What an incredible game! You also mentioned that you enjoyed working with Constructor. Working with tools like Constructor is another possible path to success for you and your game ideas. The industry is always looking for new creative talent. Several famous game designers and artists got their shot by taking part in the modding communtity, designing levels and characters for their favorite games as amateurs. It takes a lot of work, but you might get noticed if you're good enough!

On a different note: Yeah, why are people always so into the MMO thing? I personally think MMO's suck, but that's just me. I do a lot of multiplayer on the 360, and even that gets on my nerves after a while. It seems like many people I meet there just can't get enough social interaction -- they're addicted to it. I guess their real life just doesn't do it for them. I grew up in a time when we played army with toy guns out in the woods to amuse ourselves. I feel sorry for today's kids that don't have to be creative on their own anymore. It's too bad they'll never get around to trying out stupid crap like melting their plastic army figurines with a magnifying glass because they're too busy playing Phantasy Star. And then of course, when the parents kick them off the game to go to bed they start writing out these wild ideas of the universe *they* want to create, assuming everyone else loves fun exactly the way *they* see it. They want to live in it. They want to be in it. They come to iDevGames desperately seeking a scratch for their itch...

Someone needs to speak to Carlos about starting a MMORPG counter so we can keep better track. What are we averaging, two a month now after the sticky?

[bronxbomber92]

If you want to do a simple game, you can do it with Basic (however you won't be able to do a Mac game with Visual Basic). If you want a high performance server like needed for a MMORPG you need a lower level language for that. C++ is one of those. Your client however can even be in Flash, it has been done before.

As for your claim it would be simple: As a programmer you should know that everything in your game needs programming. EVERYTHING!!! If you want a small flower it has to be programmed. Want your player be able to have a kingdom? Needs programming. Vampire? Programming.
But that's not all. every concept drags around a huge amount of code in the background. For example a Vampire: Programming for steering while flying and walking, collision detection (if he hits a wall), physics (for realistic movement), flapping cape (more physics), fangs that detract, raising his arms, white skin colour, bowing (to suck), collision with sleeping victim, increasing power bar (to show how he drains his victim)... And of course all the stuff I haven't thought about yet.

finally a small thinking game:

It takes 5 years to do a simple game with 4 people.
It takes 5 years to do a AAA game with 50-100 people.
It takes 5 years to do a MMORPG game with hundreds of people.

So taking from this approximations you want to do a MMORPG with 4 people, so you need 375 years (assuming a 300 people team needs 5 years). In other words: 5 years ARE a few years.
Slightly off topic, but I believe that time could be greatly reduced (maybe by half?) if you are using a good tool set. Maybe Unity paired with Blender or Maya3D... Sound about right?

[OneSadCookie]

Slightly off topic, but I believe that time could be greatly reduced (maybe by half?) if you are using a good tool set. Maybe Unity paired with Blender or Maya3D... Sound about right?

That five years is *assuming* using a good toolset...

[Nick]

Slightly off topic, but I believe that time could be greatly reduced (maybe by half?) if you are using a good tool set. Maybe Unity paired with Blender or Maya3D... Sound about right?

It's possible, but you have to imagine that many companies (NCsoft probably moreso than others), reuses engines and toolkits and it still takes that company (which focuses solely on MMOs) a few years to make one. I'd say those estimates, from what I've read everywhere on the internet (and from a few credible sources), sound pretty accurate. Even Halo 2, which isn't an MMO, took a team of 100+ very experienced people with a base engine about 3 years to make. Now add all the MMO specific coding (server/client stuff, social systems, etc) and you'll be right around 5 years with good beta testing.

[bronxbomber92]

Oh, all right :) Cleared that up fast.

[Dirox]

Thanks again for the replies.

Im making my first little "thing" after doing a pong tut.

plz anyone, how do i call the path of where the program is?
like i want it to load a picture, not from a specific folder, but wrather from where the program is located. how do i do this in code?

thx

[unknown]

and you are doing this in what language, with what API etc etc etc?

[ThemsAllTook]

Slightly off topic, but I believe that time could be greatly reduced (maybe by half?) if you are using a good tool set. Maybe Unity paired with Blender or Maya3D... Sound about right?
That five years is *assuming* using a good toolset...
I find the first estimate potentially misleading, because my definition of a "simple" game is one that could be developed in much, much less than 5 years. Developing a simple game from start to finish, with all polish, testing, etc., can be done in less than half a year with only one reasonably capable developer.

[Dirox]

oh sorry forgot to mention, its VB

So far ive got a square shape that moves around in a 2d room (think mario) and can jump, next im gona give him some animation an shoot abilities ;D

so who's super syked to try it when im done lol..

PS. in VB how to you add/remove controls via script durring run time with a keydown event?

[lightbringer]

Developing an amazing game from start to finish, with all polish, testing, etc., can be done in less than half a year with only one amazing developer like lightbringer - I love him

Ah, shucks, thanks Alex!

EDIT: Dirox - prove to OneSadCookie you can do it, go for it buddy.

[unknown]

VB runs on mac?

[OneSadCookie]

Nope, but we've already proven beyond all doubt that Dirox can't read, so no need to act surprised :p

[Dirox]

The lightbringer ill try={P

If by Dirox can't read you mean i don't understand the concept of years and years, well i do.

This little thing I'm making is for practice, as soon as I aquire most of the information I think I'll need (by no means can i prepare for this fully) then I will start, but at the moment I need your brains plz.

Don't lagh
k.
1. How do I create/load a form durring runtime with script? dummy explanation plz, I read one tut and didn't have a clue =P
2. I noticed that VB has a limmited amount of "space" to work with, how does one make a giant RTS game style map?

Thats all for now, the questions will become fewer and fewer but I will keep intouch, just wana say this place is pretty rad and I love all the feeback even yours cookie =).

[vnvrymdreglage]

Before I realized that trying to make a full tile-based RPG in Visual Basic was too slow and choppy for my needs, I moved up to Objective-C. I thought it was impossibly hard at first, but now I'm getting the hang of it and I'm finding it exponentially easier to manage.

But in VB, if you have an Image control onscreen somewhere named myImg (assuming you're using VB6), I just call something like

myImg.Picture = LoadPicture("C:\mygame\mypicture.jpg")

To load or unload a form,

myForm.Load and myForm.Unload or to show and hide it:
myForm.Show and myForm.Hide

If the form hasn't been loaded yet, calling Show will load and display it instantly. But, I'd use the Unload call if you're getting rid of a window.

And as far as creating controls on the form programmatically during runtime, I think you would just call something like myImg = New Image and then set the properties, but I never really used that much so you should look up a tutorial. I just had a huge control array of Image controls on the form to use to draw the graphics. It's much nicer in C-based languages where you draw directly to the screen from code into one view.

And I think it's awesome that you have huge ambition. I'm still that way. But honestly, work your way up. Make a tiny, basic, old-school Final Fantasy-style RPG with simple tile based graphics (that you or your artist yourself draw perferably) and you'll see how hard it is. If you go for it all at once like I did, you'll end up with folders and folders full of incomplete projects and test ideas.

I'd be more than happy to help you out and answer any questions. I'm a junior in high-school too, so I have more than enough free time. Instant message me at vnvrymdreglage if you need help, or just post or private message me.

And answering your other question:
2.) You store the map data of each tile in an array of variables or in a file, and draw the tiles based on where you are coordinate-wise in the map. You really need a solid understanding of working with images and file I/O, ect. before you can get to this part.

[OneSadCookie]

"I have read and understood all your messages".

"So hey, Mac programming forum, how do I do stuff with this Windows-only language?".

Yeah.

[Dirox]

Before I realized that trying to make a full tile-based RPG in Visual Basic was too slow and choppy for my needs, I moved up to Objective-C. I thought it was impossibly hard at first, but now I'm getting the hang of it and I'm finding it exponentially easier to manage.

Interesting I'll look into this thanks. Objective-C? thats not Visual C++ is it?

But in VB, if you have an Image control onscreen somewhere named myImg (assuming you're using VB6), I just call something like

Ya im usin VB6

myImg.Picture = LoadPicture("C:\mygame\mypicture.jpg")

To load or unload a form,

myForm.Load and myForm.Unload or to show and hide it:
myForm.Show and myForm.Hide

If the form hasn't been loaded yet, calling Show will load and display it instantly. But, I'd use the Unload call if you're getting rid of a window.

I try to avoid having contols hiden untill need since I asume having a great number of hiden controls would slow down the program would it not?

And as far as creating controls on the form programmatically during runtime, I think you would just call something like myImg = New Image and then set the properties, but I never really used that much so you should look up a tutorial. I just had a huge control array of Image controls on the form to use to draw the graphics. It's much nicer in C-based languages where you draw directly to the screen from code into one view.

This is the only tut I could find and i don't realy understand it since I am fairly new at this.
Can you translate this so that I'll be able to use it in the future? I asume this is a fairly standard thing to know. Im making a little test game to try and work out these things before I start a nice small manageable game. Reason this came up is because I want my little dude to "Shoot" little darts which I want to use the "line" control for. So what im trying to make it do is when you hit space bar, the script creates a new line at the position of the little dude. I can take it from there.. =)

Public Function LoadControl(oForm As Object, _
CtlType As String, CtlName As String) As Object

'AUTHOR: FreeVBCode.com (http://www.freevbcode.com)
'PURPOSE: Loads a control dynamically a runtime
'PARAMETERS: oForm = Parent Form, or other object that
'supports a controls collection

'CtlType: ProgID of program (e.g.
'"VB.TextBox")

'CtlName: Name of Control
'EXAMPLE:

'In Declarations: Private WithEvents m_oCtl As Object

'In Form Code: Set m_oCtl = LoadControl _
'(Me, "VB.CommandButton", "command1")
'If Not m_oCtl Is Nothing Then
'm_oCtl.Top = 100
'm_oCtl.Left = 100
'm_oCtl.Visible = True
'End If

Dim oCtl As Object

On Error Resume Next

If IsObject(oForm.Controls) Then
Set oCtl = oForm.Controls.Add(CtlType, CtlName)
If Not oCtl Is Nothing Then Set LoadControl = oCtl

End If

End Function

And I think it's awesome that you have huge ambition. I'm still that way. But honestly, work your way up. Make a tiny, basic, old-school Final Fantasy-style RPG with simple tile based graphics (that you or your artist yourself draw perferably) and you'll see how hard it is. If you go for it all at once like I did, you'll end up with folders and folders full of incomplete projects and test ideas.

Yes i know what you mean im starting to acumulate little just started things, so I'm going to atempt to make a little game of some sort. Thanks for the positive reply.

I'd be more than happy to help you out and answer any questions. I'm a junior in high-school too, so I have more than enough free time. Instant message me at vnvrymdreglage if you need help, or just post or private message me.

Cool i wich i started that young, im just starting out and im 21 yo =( but im obsesive so it should almost balance. And thxfor your help i will need some nowand again.. thank you.

And answering your other question:
2.) You store the map data of each tile in an array of variables or in a file, and draw the tiles based on where you are coordinate-wise in the map. You really need a solid understanding of working with images and file I/O, ect. before you can get to this part.

I see.. know of any tuts? Thanks again for the post.

Josh

[Dirox]

"I have read and understood all your messages".

"So hey, Mac programming forum, how do I do stuff with this Windows-only language?".

Yeah.

oops..

Is this whole site mac only or just this section?

[unknown]

Interesting I'll look into this thanks. Objective-C? thats not Visual C++ is it?

Objective-C is Objective-C, and Visual C++ is Visual C++.

[Cochrane]

oops..

Is this whole site mac only or just this section?

This wole site. Take a close look at the banner on top. It should say "The Macintosh Game Developers' Community", with Macintosh in red.

[DoG]

This wole site. Take a close look at the banner on top. It should say "The Macintosh Game Developers' Community", with Macintosh in red.
WHAAAT? are u kidding? u mean i posted on a (yuck) mac site teh hole time? u cant teach me how haxx0r vista? omfgbbq.

[diordna]

Yo h4x0rz, sum1 send me a kopy of vista!! so i can write my mmorpg on it!!! THXOKBYE!!!1111cos(0)!!!!!!!

o and kan sum1 tel me how to load a file in vb???????????

Seriously though, next time you look for a forum to post in, make sure it's on the right topic. Go find a VB forum, or a Java forum, or a Python forum, depending on what you want.

[unknown]

poor guy, he just wanted to write a cool game. :cry:

[akb825]

Heh, I was thinking the same thing. Of course, he started off on the wrong foot by trying to do the impossible. That and the fact that he was asking about VB on a Mac forum. (along with why do all the n00bs want to make MMORPGs, why do half of them not notice the large, red Macintosh in the title either?)