Collaborative Lemmings/Worms RTS ideas

[DaFalcon]

Originally Posted by w_reade:
Lemming RTSÖ Oh yes! You could have one lemming under your control at all times with the keyboard, use the mouse for selecting different lemmings and giving them orders and switching to controlling them - or possibly you could be a super-lemming, with certain special abilities (the ones we want to do but can't write good AI for ).

Basically, you'd be a boss with hordes of slaves doing your bidding, and so would your opponentÖ

Big 2d side-on maps with, if it's feasible, a terrain engine that can handle cave-ins, and explosions that conserve debrisÖ I think it could be done, but I'd need to try it to see if it was actually doable. Fog of war would cover places you haven't observed, so you'll need to actively search for people mining the roof of your home cavern, sending it crashing down to bury everyoneÖ it'd be great.

We might need some sort of resource-collecting thing going on so players could get new lemmings and uses of abilities, but shorter games - with strictly limited (maybe no) extra resources - would be good too. Those games would probably usually come down to the two super-lemmings hunting each other through damaged tunnels. Which would also be a good thing. Those would be simple "kill the other super-lemming" affairs, but slightly more varied objectives could be managed in single-player.

For 1P, you could be fighting some sort of monsters (bigger/tougher than lemmings?), but would be able to have wars against other lemming armies for 2+ players?

Comments?

This was brought up in the Technical forum in a discussion about tetris/breakout style games that evolved into this post above.

I think it would be a wonderful project for a group on iDevGames to work on (perhaps even an Inkubator project) so I started this thread here.

I am completely willing to do as many or as few graphics as requested to help make this game come to life, but before we can even start talking graphics we need to know who might be interested and obviously have a bit more or a solid plan than a couple posts with some great ideas :-) Why am I still blabbering??! Come on everyone, let's come up with a design document.

I'm no programmer, but I think that GameRanger (or some similar service) support would be a must for the full 2-player experience, since we won't likely be able to create an AI as challenging as we'd like (though I'm sure some of you could, if you really wanted to)... the 'monsters' idea is a good one for a 1P mode, but for this to shine there needs to be some kind of networked 2-player mode.

[w_reade]

I would certainly be interested in doing thisÖ I may chill out from finally submitting MAFFia and code by cobbling together some sort of draft design doc. Excuse me while I plug my gameÖ

It's at http://www.btinternet.com/~julianreade/maffia.dmg . v1.0.1, New and Improved.

Öahem.

I think the area that needs most conceptual work is the resources one. I think the most hopeful dynamic at this early stage would be an infinite supply of lemmings, coming out of a hole in the sky, and something you need to collect to pay for uses of different abilities. The hole in the sky could be destroyed by the other team, but I feel victory in the basic game type should go to the last superlemming standing. Of course other game types would be possible - limited lemmings, limited "cash".

The superlemming would have a fair few unrestricted powers, to make one-on-one fights more interesting (and give the player a suitable sense of power).

All lemmings should have an unrestricted suicide ability that takes a while to use, and doesn't work (ie they just die without exploding) if they're hit while they're counting down. Then, the only way you could destroy the enemy base would be with a suicide gruntlemming. Could be interesting.

Working out what you can pick up to give you abilities would be interestingÖ in a funny sort of way, I reckon that a catch-all magic/mana explanation could deal with itÖ I don't think there's anything illogical about using magic to make guns :?.

Needs some workÖ

[edit - yes, multiplayer is a must]

[DaFalcon]

Has there been a 2D sidescrolling real time strategy game before? I guess in some small way the Vikings games were. But not like this. And I hardly know every game made so someone out there can probably list off a few. But still. This is an amazingly rich and original idea for something that comes from a combination of two existing games (or is it really only just lemmings, with some inspiration from worms?)

I remember in Jr. High my friend and I would get through spanish class by drawing little stick-figure IRS attack and defense plans. We would have all these little stick figures airdropping bombs on IRS buildings while men tunneled underneath to sneak up on the IRS building to take it out from underneath. And then we'd draw the IRS defenses... like the IRS building is a fake, and the real one is 200 ft. underground with a tunnel entrance through a tree-trunk. We'd draw guys with guns, and with rope, and with pick-axe's and bombs .... for some reason this game idea reminded me of that. It was fun. IRS, don't hate me! :)

[Josh]

I would be willing to help in programming. Would this be Obj-C Cocoa or something else? Unfortunately, I am not a very creative person, so I will leave all of the idea-making you those of you that are. So far I really like the concept and now I really want to find the copy of Lemmings I bought...

[w_reade]

Another brief thoughtÖ what if ability resources were gained from the bodies of lemmings (or monsters, on whatever team) that haven't suicided? Perhaps it shouldn't be the only source of resources, but it might be goodÖ there could be difficult monsters that you don't have to kill, but if you can you can harvest loads of cash-equivalent?

We'd need to be clever with grouping lemmings, thoughÖ I think it would be very important to make controlling your hordes as easy as possible, but as powerful as possible too. A tricky proposition, butÖ

About abilitiesÖ I think lemmings should probably be able to carry more than one abilityÖ perhaps if one merged little single-ability lemmings one could make bigger better ones with more slots? Abilities should be a mix of limited-use (grenades?) with permanent (grappling hook?) - that is, permanent until the slot is overwritten by a new ability.

Bigger lemmings would be tougher and have more abilities, but need stronger floors and wider tunnels to move around. Perhaps the previously-mentioned base-killing suicide would need a 5x lemming with no extra abilities? (ie 5 slots, still all containing suicide). It'd basically be a vulnerable short-range heavy weaponÖ

The superlemming could perhaps regain health only by merging with its own smaller lemmings?

I'm liking the idea of living things as resources more and moreÖ maps could have finite or infinite: starting creatures; wandering-monster sources; enemy-monster sources; lemming sources. It could easily be done as "sucking mana out" or something, which allows us the opportunity for nice little Soul Reaver style particle effects.

Not such a brief thought in the endÖ

[edit - grammar]

[jamie]

Sounds like a very cool idea, I've always been a big lemmings fan. Never played worms though, sounds like I've been missing out on a good thing.

Anyway, I was thinking about the supply of lemmings. What if the supply is not unlimited but if both sides started with the same amount. And when a lemming on side A dies for whatever reason, side B gets a new one added? I like the idea of suicide lemmings but that could lead to all out suicide runs to over-run the other side quickly, might add a bit more strategy if you knew for everyone of your own lemmings you killed the other team got a new one added?

just a thought...

[w_reade]

My view on suicide-rushes was that, since a suicide lemming would fail to explode, and simply die, if it were hit, the suicide-rush tactic would be pretty useless anywayÖ it basically gives your enemy a whole load of bodies to plunder enough to fit out a bunch of stealthy-tunnelling-ninja-demolition-lemmingsÖ with bazookas. You, meanwhile, can't get access to the battlefield and have to send some of your few remining lemmings off with spud guns on risky mammoth-hunting expeditions so you can buy abilities while your numbers gradually drip-feed back up.

However, I reckon there are definite opportunities for resource-limited battlesÖ potentially players would simply merge with half their lemmings, slaughter the other half, suck the mana, tool up and go hunting. It'd be the "quick game" option I suspectÖ 2 minutes of preparation, 5 minutes of stalking, and a final battle of indeterminate length. A good contrast with the paranoid undermining strategy of the unlimited-resources game.

Good choice of different game rules/types is always an asset. Random maps would be goodÖ how hard that was would depend upon the terrain engine I suppose.

[DaFalcon]

Well, instead of outright giving team A's lemmings to team B when they die, why not allow team B to harvest the dead team A lemming as a resource to build a new lemming. Actually, this is precisely what w_reade said :-) I think that it is fair to trade-off the ability to kill a suicide lemming to prevent the explosion (and then you can tear apart his limbs and use them to make your own lemming... or, you know, whatever).... So if you send 20 suicide lemmings in to blow up an enemy base, the enemy can grenade them all in one shot and then make 7 lemmings of his own with the remaining lemming parts.

The more destructive the lemming-killing, the less lemming is left over to create a new lemming with. Stabbing a lemming would let you drag the whole thing back to your pool of biomass to add .95 lemming units to it. A grenade would leave something more like a third, and a suicide would completely eliminate both the lemming and those standing too close.

The biomass pool could grow as long as there is some biomass in it... and it could grow at a rate determined by the amount of biomass in it. If you have .5 lemming units of bimass in it, then it would take much longer to grow an army than if you have 5.5 lemming units in the pool. Dragging dead biomass into the pool would very advantageous. Also, you could wait at the start of the game (using your superlemming to set up defenses) to get more biomass quickly.

I agree, w_reade, having living things as resources is a great idea :-)

Having a limited amount of mana that grows could work. Have 10 mana to start, and to create a lemming from the biomass costs a mana point. Then to give it the "tunnel" ability *requires* a mana point, but only *costs* half a man point. The other half of the mana point is restored when the lemming dies or when you take away the lemming's ability. This way you are expending mana points, but you also have to manage a "stock" of mana points that don't completely go away. Of course, the actual values would be tweaked to economic perfection, my numbers are just examples. This would help balance the number of lemmings with the number of abilities.

I like the combined lemming idea, probably because my fave race is SC is the Protoss and I loved creating massive armies of Archons :-) The larger tunnels/stronger floors.

I can just imagine the floor caving in beneath a large lemming as he falls into a trap set by the enemy :-) To do this right though we would have to have pretty smart fog of war that would only show you tunnels that you have actually seen with one of your lemmings. Of course, there could be 'tunnel vision' abilities that allow lemmings to see further down tunnels (still limited to line of sight) or some kind of 'x-ray vision' ability which is more expensive but allows the lemming to see tunnels in a cicular area regardless of line of sight. You could then send a scout in with your massive lemming to check for such "thin floor" traps that a normal lemming wouldn't sense. Etc. Etc. Etc. :-)

[DaFalcon]

Yes, random maps. That had to be one of the coolest thigs about Worms. Nah, you can't beat bannana bombs and sheep ... but random maps is definitely a close second :-) The grappling hook would come in third :-)

So should mana come from lemmings, or should biomass come from lemmings? Or perhaps when you kill a lemming with an ability, the amount on mana spent on that ability is 'lost' to the player and whoever gets to the body first can harvest it for herself? Then what is to stop the player from quickly taking away a power that a lemming has before it dies? ...or how about abilities have to be granted and taken away by the Super Lemming player, i.e. the lemmings need to come to the Super Lemming to be granted powers, or else the Super Lemming needs to go to the lemmings. So a super lemming on the front lines would be quite advantageous, but it would also be very very risky! So when a lemming dies with mana, a player can drag the remains back to his super lemming to reap the mana and then drop it into the biomass pool so that it can fester with the rest to become a future lemming, or it can take it straight to the biomass pool. Then the Super Lemming would get all the mana stored up in the biomass pool whenever he visits the pool.

[DaFalcon]

Good choice of different game rules/types is always an asset.

Yes, definitely! I can see people wanting to play quick 10 minute death matches or long, super strategizing, base-building, multi-player most-paranoid-player wins type games that take as long as a good starcraft match. Maybe not *that* long, but who knows? Options! :-)

Okay, so what abilities can lemmings have? An incomplete list of possibilities:

(we can pick and choose and modify and add new ideas, etc.)

>Suicide explosion (every lemming comes with this)
>Extra-explosive suicide (costs extra/takes a slot)
>Merge ability (allows a lemming to merge with another lemming or with the player. The need for this ability makes it harder for 40 lemmings to run through a small tunnel, then merge on the other side and attack the enemy base, among other things)
>Tunnel vision (see further within LOS)
>X-Ray vision (see through walls within a radius)
>Infra-red (like X-ray vision, but you can only see where enemy troops are within a radius, you can't see tunnels)
>Parachute/Umbrella (fall from heights without splattering messily all over the place)
>Climb (climb vertical walls)
>Dig (dig down)
>Tunnel (dig vertically/diagnally)
>Grenader (fire a limited number of explosive grenades. Grenades can be on-impact or timed and are subject to gravity.)
>Duelist (come up with a better name for this. Gives the lemming limited but numerous bullets to fire).
>Jump (jump over short distances. Good for setting up defenses that only a prepared 'ninja' lemming can overcome.)
>Build bridges (build a short bridge to overcome pits. Can be dug through.)
>Build ramps (similar to a bridge, but with a veritcal incline. Can also be dug through)
>Stealth (this lemming would not be detected by other lemmings until it was very close. It can still be seen by infra-red and can be seen sooner by tunnel vision. Also gives the lemming with this ability a really cool ninja outfit ;-))
>Swords (this has a limited range, but unlimited use. Also, does allows for the best conservation of post-death lemming body part recovery.)
>Throwing stars (what's a good ninja lemming without 'em?! Limited in number, less range, but also conserves post-death lemming body parts well. Subject to gravity.)
>Mine Layer (mines will kill your lemmings as soon as the enemies, so don't go crazy with them! These will be difficult to spot (but still visible), and will stand out to lemmings with x-ray vision or infra-red.)

Some abilities would be lost when you stop using them, and will usually be of limited duration (the builders/tunnellers, for example.) Other abilities would remain until taken away or the lemming dies (swords), and others will go away when ammo runs out or when taken away or when the lemming dies (grenaders, duelists)

[w_reade]

vague ideaÖ how about: whenever you replace/remove an ability, sparkly mana comes out of the lemming and hangs around waiting to be collected. So doing it on the battefield is useless, but if you're behind the front lines you can just switch a lemming's abilities and suck up the spare mana without worrying.

Possibly only the superlemming could pick up mana, but peon-type lemmings (cheapest upgrade above suicide fodder) could collect biomass from battlefields and take it back to the pool. The whole biomass idea is brilliant.

In fact, good ideas all :). A grappling hook is a must. I also like only the superlemming being able to grant powers - it would tie in nicely with only the superlemming collecting mana.

[DaFalcon]

So what does a lemming with no abilities do? It should be able to punch and kick, then strangle an enemy when down. Punching a suiciding lemming wouldn't kill it right away, but a couple of blows should do the trick.

It would be humerous to watch a group of lemmings punching each other in a massive brawl and doing very little damage to each other. Then, an Ninja appears and chops off the heads of all its enemies in a series of fluid motions.

[DaFalcon]

I find it hard to imagine a lemming using a grappling hook (unless the player is specificially controlling it) because the AI might not know when/how to use it. The player should Definitely be able to have a grappling hook. And maybe we can offer the grappling hook ability to lemmings if players are willing to micro-manage them. Maybe only big lemmings can have them? Maybe they can carry smaller lemmings across in their arms?

vague ideaÖ how about: whenever you replace/remove an ability, sparkly mana comes out of the lemming and hangs around waiting to be collected. So doing it on the battefield is useless, but if you're behind the front lines you can just switch a lemming's abilities and suck up the spare mana without worrying.

That sounds good to me :-) I like sparkly special effects :-)

[DaFalcon]

Sounds...

It would be good if the player could hear primarily the sounds that are the lemmings on his screen can hear. There would still be faint sounds that all the rest of his lemmings could hear, too.

Picture this: you are digging a tunnel and you think you hear the faint sound of a pickaxe other than your own. You tell your lemmings to stop digging. You can still hear the sound of a ramp being formed in the distance, but you know that is you building off screen. There is still a faint digging sound. You realize what is happening and place a few mines and ready your ninjas as the digging gets louder. Then, all of a sudden, the tunnel opens up and your enemy sees you, is surprised, and then gets blown to bits when your ninja fires a throwing star at a mine, setting off a massive explosion.

Perhaps it would be near impossible for it to be so realistic that you would hear an enemy in a nearby tunnel and that its volume would reflect the amount of dirt between you and her ... but it sure would be cool.

[DaFalcon]

OK, so... base defense. Basically as I picture it, a base consists of nothing but a biomass pool so far. The pool can be destroyed only by a suicide, which means that you need to basically kill everything near the pool before you can destroy it. Sounds fair enough. But you could also sneak up and tunnel in behind/above/below it, drop in a suiciding lemming just in time to blow it up...

What else would a base contain? Or should I ask, what does it need?

How does a lemming form? It spawns from the biomass pool at a cost of mana. Does the superlemming need to be present??? (ideas anyone?)

How does a lemming gain abilities? The superlemming spends mana to grant them to a lemming. The lemming must have an available ability slot and the superlemming must be present.

Are all abilities available immediately? They probably shouldn't be. Do we need to construct "buildings" to learn to grant certain abilities? Works for me. Maybe the 'buildings' need to be built from biomass too?

That leaves "biomass" and "mana" as the resources in the game. Both grow at a given rate. Biomass can be gained depending on "what the cat drags home" (that is, what lemmings bring back from battles) and it also grows as long as there is some biomass present. Mana can be recovered by the superlemming from sparkly areas (left behind by lemmings leaving abilities) and also is replenished over time. Therefore both resources are by default unlimited overall, but you will have a limited supply of each at any time. Should there be a max cap of mana or biomass? Should there be any other resources?

[DaFalcon]

Potential name of the game: Creatures of Deep Earth

And of course we can't actually call the lemmings lemmings, because that's a very trademarked/copyrighted 'idea', even if the word lemming refers to real furry suicidal creatures who have been known to walk off cliffs in droves. So any ideas for what we will call our lemmings? Any alternate ideas for the name of the game?

[furballphat]

Originally posted by DaFalcon
I find it hard to imagine a lemming using a grappling hook (unless the player is specificially controlling it) because the AI might not know when/how to use it. The player should Definitely be able to have a grappling hook. And maybe we can offer the grappling hook ability to lemmings if players are willing to micro-manage them. Maybe only big lemmings can have them? Maybe they can carry smaller lemmings across in their arms?


What if the lemmings are set to follow another, player controlled lemming which uses the grappling hook and the others follow.



And w_reade: here's my plug:

[DaFalcon]

What if the lemmings are set to follow another, player controlled lemming which uses the grappling hook and the others follow.

Sounds good to me as long as all of those lemmings have a grapling hook ability. Or if one of them has the ability and can carry the others across one by one, that'd work. Or maybe they could create a lemming-chain, with one using the grappling hook and others hanging off of his and climbing over each other to get up. Sounds complicated but comical.

Keep the ideas flowing ;-)

[DaFalcon]

Originally posted by furballphat
And w_reade: here's my plug:
[/URL] [/B]

Whoops, one extra [url]http:// (http://http://pc-80-195-8-120-ed.blueyonder.co.uk/~adam/Binrakers.tgz) in there :-)

[geezusfreeek]

How smart will the "lemmings" be? What sort of behaviors will be automatic and what sort of behaviors must the player specifically order?

[jamie]

Don't want to get to literal im sure but here is a link with lots of info about 'real lemmings'

http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/hww-fap/hww-fap.cfm?ID_species=61&lang=e

might be some useful information...

[DaFalcon]

Well, as a strategy game we don't want the lemmings wandering off and doing their own thing too much, but we do want to be able to have them defend themselves, and fight when we aren't paying attention. They should not explore on their own (but we should be able to set a patrol like in StarCraft). Pathfinding will VERY important, and as w_reade mentioned earlier, group movement will be imporant too.

Can lemmings overlap? I'm tempted to say yes, but maybe it can be like parchisi: two lemmings on the same space means no more lemmings can pass that space. So that way you can march armies past a ninja standing guard, but two such ninjas would block the enemy's path (forcing him to fight the ninjas essentially)... Of course, we would want our troops to be smart enough to move aside to let our troops pass any of our blockades. Basically, we would just check to see if two lemmings overlap on a pixel-by pixel basis to check if there is a blockage there or not. Of course, the enemy can always just tunnel under or blow up a lemming blockade :-)

The two-lemmings per pixel rule would be good for preventing cluttering and to prevent 50 lemmings from marching into one mine and all exploding at once. And it is also 'realistic' if you just assume that the depth of the tunnels is such that only two lemmings would be able to fit side-by-side at a time. Makes sense to me.

As for 'above ground' areas... I assume that there could be an area above ground too with no lemming-per-pixel limits and where it is much easier to see everything that is going on. You could walk above ground over above where you think the enemy base is, then drill down and drop your army from above. Taking control of the 'overworld' would be very important.

[DaFalcon]

Originally posted by jamie
Don't want to get to literal im sure but here is a link with lots of info about 'real lemmings'

http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/hww-fap/hww-fap.cfm?ID_species=61&lang=e


Fascinating creatures :-) I remember reading a little about them in a wildlife factfile I had growing up, but didn't know all of that. Lemmings really are perfect for the lemmings game :-) They even appropriately "fall from the sky."

We could call our creatures kilangmiutaks, or kilas for short. Kilangmiutak is a Inuit name for a breed of lemming and means "one-who-comes-from-the-sky" according to that link

[geezusfreeek]

That article didn't mention the most interesting fact of all. Lemmings are known to all simultaneously jump into the freezing ocean, where they die, for no apparent reason.

[furballphat]

Originally posted by geezusfreeek
That article didn't mention the most interesting fact of all. Lemmings are known to all simultaneously jump into the freezing ocean, where they die, for no apparent reason.

Not quite. This is a myth. Although lemmings do sometimes fall off cliffs or into lakes when looking for new places to populate, they do not purposefully dive off cliffs.

[geezusfreeek]

Oh great, you ruined my greatest animal trivia ever. Thanks lemmingphat!

I like the max two lemmings per pixel thing, btw.

[DaFalcon]

w_reade, since I got home from work I've been so busy blasting sheep ... it's all your fault, darnit! Good work, by the way, a well polished UDG entry :-)

So all you programmers out there reading all of this, are you thinking "oh no!" as you read it, or does most of this sound completely do-able? I have a feeling we'll be doing alot of pixel-checking for overlap and movement and digging and stuff. Is that going to be expensive processor wise? I don't even know what I'm talking about, huh? :-)

What kind of technologies should we be looking at? Open GL? Are there existing game engines that sound like they'd help put us in the right direction... are any of you working on such an engine that you'd like to contribute? Is this going to be a coco-a/obj-C game, or do we target a wider audience? Perhaps it is still too soon to ask these questions, we still have a lot of design left. And also, I know you're all recovering from the madness of the last minute in UDG, not to mention playing all those great games.

And are we all seeing this as an open source effort, or as more of a development team thing that we can eventually release as shareware? I'm up for either one, I just want to play this :-) And I want input from everyone in this community :-) Gameplay suggestions, code suggestions, game asset contributions ... everything. I like the names I'm seeing who look to be interested in this topic, but then basically everyone here is so talented... I really do hope that everyone with any interest can join in and help out somehow.

[OneSadCookie]

The processor requirements sound feasible (after all, Lemmings didn't need much).

I'd recommend QuickDraw/CopyBits for this task, but whether you hang that on a Carbon foundation or just use an NSQuickDrawView is up to you...

[DaFalcon]

I created a tiny section of a mock up of what the game could look like. Two teams have confronted each other, and the green duelist lemming has shot one blue lemming and is about to do away with another. The second green lemming is climbing up to haul away some biomass, and yeah, that is a rather large green lemming waiting below in case blue launches a counter-attack.

http://www.snakequest.com/other/fakegame.gif

I created the 'lemming' guys in a rather large sized photoshop file with paths for potentially easy animation. None of the graphics are anti-aliased, so they would work with a simple black/white mask.

... I thought it would be nice to get some ideas for the look of the game, even if these wouldn't be anything like the final look for the game's characters :-)

And now, the lemming guy dance! http://www.snakequest.com/other/danceguy.gif
[you may have to open him in a new window to see him dance. I do. I don't know why.]

[w_reade]

Nice lemmingsÖ no time for a long reply, will check back later.

Cheers
william

[w_reade]

I'd actually be rather tempted to just write our own CopyBits/Mask replacement, since I've noticed that it spends over 80% of its time in a routine called "Stretch" or something, which suggests to me that it's doing an awful lot of superfluous checking of bounding rects and suchlike, when (in my case) 100% of the time I had to draw things precisely 1:1, otherwise it'd look bad.

I drew directly into GWorlds for the fire in MAFFia, and it's really not too taxing, and we could always write a CopyStretch function or something for those other 0% of cases :).

I see the real challenge here being the terrain engine - if we can construct that right I think we could reap the benefits when it comes to the pathfinding and AI. I have very nebulous thoughts there, I'll let you know when they firm up. Certainly I suspect this part may be more of a processor worry than the graphics.

I think we'll need to expand the patrol idea a bit, so we can order strings of commands, and we don't want the AI sending your own lemmings on a route that'll collapse some cunning trap you're building yourself.

Probably lemmings should never use terrain-damaging abilities uness they're specifically told to, or they get into a fight.

Ögot to go againÖ

Ölater.

[furballphat]

Originally posted by w_reade
I think we'll need to expand the patrol idea a bit, so we can order strings of commands, and we don't want the AI sending your own lemmings on a route that'll collapse some cunning trap you're building yourself.

We could make it so you could specify places as "no go area", which the pathfinder treats as an unpassable wall.

[DaFalcon]

The "don't go here" area would be nice. But I think that w_reade is right and it should also never engage in destructive bahavior unless told to do so. It would be a pain if you forgot about your own trap and your lemmings sprung it for you (but then you would have only yourself to blame......)

[ededed]

Nice dancing Agent 'Da Falcon

I can't imagine how we could possibly make an AI for this game, but a really well made engine would be good. That's sort of what I meant in the first place. A great engine then ObjC plugins/bundles to control the graphics, gameplay, triggers, objects etc.

Whatever happens someone MUST remember to put in Grappeling hooks that you can swing off and bend round obsticals.

[w_reade]

I had a (maybe) excellent idea last night: a mana transponder network.

As you explore, you plant mana transponders. As long as two MTs have line of sight to one another, and are within a certain range, they are connected, and if a lemming has LOS and range to a MT, the lemming is also connected.

If a lemming is connected to the superlemming by the MT network, the lemming can have its abilities and orders changed, and the mana released will be sucked up by the MT. The MT net will recharge the superlemming's mana whenever he is in range, and will distribute the excess evenly among its nodes, which cannot be too close together, forcing the player to expand to store a big stock of mana.

There'll therefore be a strong incentive to build a good MT network, which then functions for us as a system of pathfinding nodes, on whatever random map we get. We'll need to be a bit clever with nodes that are visible but not easily accessible, but I reckon finding our way round that problem will be easier.

We'll also need to be clever in cases where collapses cut parts of the network off from one another, but I bet we could convincingly fake reasonably intelligent behaviour.

Other thoughts, about abilities: I reckon a 3-tier system would work well for most abilities, with some single-level and maybe some more-upgradeable ones as well. Each extra slot you fill levels the ability up. So:

Pickaxe < Blowtorch < Laser torch (tunneling with a sideways component)
Shovel < Drill < Laser drill (tunneling straight down)
Ladder/reinforcing strut x3 (get stronger)

Uzi < Tommy gun < Minigun
Grenades < Cluster bomb < Flea bomb
RPG < Bazooka < Machine bazooka
Dagger < Katana < Lightsaber

Jump < Double jump < Jetpack

and so on. Single-strength ones like:

Grappling hook
Armour plating (possibly have as many as you like but no cumulative extra effect)
Heartbeat bomb (explodes on death, but not as powerful as suicide)
Parachute

etcetera.

More ideas as they come.

[DaFalcon]

I think we're unanimous (even if I can't spell the word) on the grappling hook :-)

Great ideas, w_reade!

The Mana Transporter (for some reason I keep thinking "mana transporter pod" (MTP) which could be upgraded to some kind of "smart mana transporter pod" (SMTP) ...) is a good way to balance the superlemming being in one place at once with getting abilities to the lemmings.

Questions:
If the enemy destroys an MT, does its mana dissapear? How can MTs be destroyed? Suiciders only? This sounds good to me, because unguarded MT Networks can still easily be broken up by digging an MT into a hole. Are MTs attatched to the floor? Can they optionally be attatched to a ceiling (for slightly better protection and easier LOS connections)?

As for the Three-Tier system, it makes perfect sense to me :-) What added advantage does a Light Saber have over a Katana in the context of the game? Can it slowly carve walls? Or does it deal more damage? Speaking of which, will lemmings have hit points? I think it would be more interesting to have hit points rather than having them die from a single stab/shot/explosion (though just as in worms, a well placed cluster bomb can easily drain all the hit points from a group of lemmings)...

love the ideas, keep 'em coming :)

[ededed]

It's got be-eee OpenGL, OpenGL it will be.
I will upload a demo soon, very soon keep your eye's on the skys.
With OpenGL we can have a ripple effect for the water when an agent falls in, we can have really really cool particle effects and the rotation for spinning agents will be very fast.

OpenGL Demo coming soon...

[furballphat]

OpenGL sounds good, but I don't know much about the alternatives (quickdraw, gworlds) so I couldn't pass a judgement.

[Josh]

Yep, OpenGL would let us use some pretty spiffy effects. Not too good with it but I suppose it is time to learn... :cool:

[w_reade]

I was thinking that when an MT was destroyed its mana would simply waft into the air and wait to be collected; however, the idea clearly needs a bit of refinement before we have it absolutely nailed down. I like the idea of being able to steal mana from enemy networks, basically, but I'm not sure how it should be done.

Perhaps MTs could simply be fixed to any piece of terrain?

I wasn't sure quite how a lightsaber would be better, I just felt that any game where there's an opportunity for a lightsaber is improved by having one :).

Grappling hook lemmings could trail ropes behind them and affix them at both ends, and other lemmings could crawl along the ropes, if we wanted normal lemmings to be able to follow them.

OpenGL is a good thing, certainly for sparkly effects, but I'm not sure how well suited it'd be to the terrain ideas. This area certainly needs more discussion - how we determine when walls etc. collapse, and what exactly happens when they do, all tie in here.

Another ability, perhaps:

Cloak < Invisible < Silent (& invisible)

where 'cloak' keeps the lemming visible etc, but you can't see its abilities. Just an idea, but it could be interesting.

[DaFalcon]

I like the rope idea if we want lemmings to follow grappling hookers (uhm, that doesn't sound quite right), it sounds like it could work fairly well. Perhaps the rope could be frail and thus temporary ... enough for a small group of lemmings to follow, and then the ropes break...

Lightsabers, like ninjas, should indeed be in any game where it could make any kind of weak plausible sense :-)

MT's being able to be affixed to any terrain sounds ideal.

When an MT is destroyed, it would make sense for the mana to stay, sparkling in place. It allows for mana to be harvested from the enemy, but is still somewhat difficult. If we stick with the idea of having mana "in use" when there is an ability in a lemming, then lemmings themselves would be another way of storing mana :-) You could even have a "mana storage" ability that costs very, very little but 'uses' a larger amount of mana. You could create a room full of the little guys and hope the enemy doesn't rush in and destroy them with a cluster bomb. When you need the mana back, you just 'release' the ability and send the mana back to the network, and you've got a lemming ready to crawl out of its hole and become a ninja. I think the reason I like this idea is because of the book series I'm reading, The Runelords, in which commoners can grant 'endowments' of strength or metabolism to their lords, and then they are weak or always sleep and they need to be protected in some tower of the castle while thier lord is now stronger for it.

As for OpenGL vs. a custom copybits replacement, I'm staying out of that one since I am no programmer :-) But I do think that rotating sprites won't be a big gain because 2D sprites of something like a lemming/agent probably wouldn't look great rotated anyway. I guess maybe if they were climbing a slope, but it would still be best to have a separate animation for that. What we need is good collision detection, a good terrain engine, and the ability to manipulate lots of little sprites all over the screen. Being able to zoom in and out of the playig field would certainly be a cool feature that I think OpenGL would provide, but again I don't really know about these things :-) Some way to automatically "tint" the color of a sprite would be desirable so that we wouldn't need 200 different sprites in each color, and it would allow the user to chooze his/her own color from any possibility. I've seen this in the TNT BASIC Beans, albiet in a simple form. I know its existed elsewhere.

I like the cloak ability as described :-) "Hah! You puny grunt lemming! Hey! How did you just chop off my head?!" ... I prefer stealth to invisible because I'm always so annoyed by invisible enemies, and at least you see a stealth character if he gets close enough to you :-) ... Silent seems like it would be a very slight upgrade to invisible, but maybe if very large combi-lemmings made 'loud' footsteps, then it would come in quite handy.

[OneSadCookie]

Some way to automatically "tint" the color of a sprite would be desirable so that we wouldn't need 200 different sprites in each color, and it would allow the user to chooze his/her own color from any possibility.

I did this in OpenGL for Smiley Tag. You can download it and look in the application package for the graphics I used if it interests you...

It would, of course, also be trivial to do with CopyBits or a custom replacement... maybe SpriteWorld is what we need here?

[ededed]

Here is the OpenGL tests I did.

http://www.geocities.com/ed72678954/index.html

I used Jpegs so the masking looks worse tan it would if you used tiffs.

[Josh]

Wow... deja vou. I will check it out as soon as I can. Oh wait... Cocoa OpenGL doesn't work for me, nevermind.

[Josh]

Thinking again about it... I think I would vote for using CopyBits/CopyMask (or a custom replacement) instead of OpenGL.

[David]

It would help if there were an app in your test folder for those of us who are project-builder-less

[Josh]

There was a pre-built app in both folders. They are Cocoa though, so if you are running Mac OS 9, they won't do you much good.

[David]

I was in jaguar :/ Where, in which folders?

[OneSadCookie]

I didn't find a pre-built app in the "LemmingsTest" (or whatever it was called) folder...

Out of curiosity, if you're on Jaguar, how come you don't have the developer tools? If you bought it retail you should have them on CD; if you got it pre-installed on a new Mac, the developer tools installer should have been installed too...

[David]

I cant find the dev cd :/

[DaFalcon]

There are pre-built apps in there when I downloaded it, called "LemmingTest2" in the "LemmingTest2" folder of the "LemmingTest Folder" folder and called "GLTextureShredder" in the "GLTextureShredder" of the "LemmingTest Folder" folder. I like the water effect/graphics, and I see how you did terrain with OpenGL, ededed. Can that be done dynamically, without a source graphic? I'm thinking of randomly generated terrain here ...

[OneSadCookie]

OpenGL textures can be generated dynamically, and the Mac has lots of Mac-specific extensions to make dynamic textures super-fast. The problem is designing the algorithm to dynamically generate the image...

[geezusfreeek]

David, if you are an ADC member you can download the Jaguar dev tools from Apple.

I vote for OpenGL. While what we are looking at right now can be done with Quickdraw, OpenGL has many more capabilities should we later think of more complex effects to implement. I would love to be able to zoom in and out as well.

[w_reade]

If OpenGL can do good dynamic textures, then I'm all for it. Only thing I was thinking was, wouldn't these textures be stored in VRAM? I've heard it's slow to read from, and we'd need to be checking the mask a fair bit for collision detection. Of course, we could have a copy of the mask in normal memory, which is our working copy, and just update the texture's alpha channel as and when we need to. Might have some advantages, actuallyÖ

[DaFalcon]

If we do go with OpenGL, the zoom feature should be one we right into the design document off the bat ;-)

For groups of lemmings, should we use the traditional RTS approach of assigning number keys to groups?

[OneSadCookie]

Yeah, you wouldn't read back from VRAM.

Personally, I think that OpenGL will just end up being harder than blitting for this particular project, though. Doing dynamic textures with OpenGL isn't as easy as updating a GWorld.

[Josh]

The two reasons I would favor CopyBits/GWorlds over OpenGL:

1) we would have a larger audience/market
2) Hooptie is programmed in Obj-C/Cocoa, so it keeps a lot of the good Carbon programmers from helping out

These are, of course, based on the assumption that we would use Obj-C/Cocoa for OpenGL. If we were to use CopyBits/GWorlds we could obviously make a few custom wrappers/functions/replacements to make it easier or faster.

[w_reade]

So, basically, even if we use openGL we'll still need to be messing about with our own bitmaps. I still favour a CopyBits or suitable replacement. Plus, I've decided that I rather like Carbon.

[OneSadCookie]

Using CopyBits & GWorlds doesn't prevent you from using Cocoa for the rest of the game, nor vice versa. And of course, you can use OpenGL from either Cocoa or Carbon.

Personally, I find Cocoa to be a significantly more productive environment to work in than Carbon, so I'd recommend Cocoa + QuickDraw for this project :)

[w_reade]

Fair enough - I like GWorlds and I'm not actually that attached to CarbonÖ in fact I seem to recall vowing to use Cocoa exclusively from now on at one particularly frustrating point recently. So, Cocoa and GWorldsÖ sounds good.

[Josh]

w_reade, funny to watch you change opinions so quickly :D Cocoa + QuickDraw sounds like a good compromise to me. Though really if we were to go Mac OS X-only, we could use CoreGraphics (though I don't really know how to do anything in it or how it compares to QuickDraw). Has anyone begun compiling all of the various ideas/theories to make a rudimentry (sp?) design document? How many programmers and artists do we have interested? How did Hooptie get started (i.e. what should we do first)?

[OneSadCookie]

Hooptie got started because Mark Pazolli made a nearly-complete game, that people could see how to incrementally improve.

I don't know how far this is likely to go unless someone here takes the initiative and writes something that's just about playable...

[geezusfreeek]

I'd love to help. I don't want to be the one to take initiative here, though, because that would put me into a leading position that I simply don't have the time for.;)

[ededed]

To zoom in on a 2D world we could just do glScalef(scaleFactor, scaleFactor, 1);
and with rotation and translation of the entire screen we could have a cool rumble effect when a explosion happens. I was thinking that terrain would be automaticly generated as well as having some predefined maps and a map editor. Wouldnt it be possible to have a Carbon OpenGL game? I have got a LemmingTest3 now and the masking works now and there is ripple effect on the water when you click on it. I also think it would be great to get this game programmed with Carbon.

What is/are gWorlds?
How would you program stuff with QuickDraw?

[ededed]

I have a simple ripple effect and a grass grower (not a fully functional terrain generator).
There is also a nice java applet there (with source code).

WormTest3.sit
http://www.geocities.com/ed72678954/index.html

[ededed]

Here is the guy "walking/dancing" he look really good but could you draw some steps for him jumping?
AgentTest4
http://www.geocities.com/ed72678954/index.html

[DaFalcon]

Mac OS X had a rare crash (I unplugged a RioOne MP3 player without first unmounting it -- I have had *nothing but problems with that thing* [what I get for not spending for an iPod, I guess]) and I lost my source file for the lemming guy I made (Bad Falcon! Not saving your work each step... you should KNOW BETTER!) so I'll have to re-make it from scratch to do any more animations. I'm not reeally all that concerned though, because I intended to re-make it anyway as I basically just threw that together.

Ideas for the look of our lemmings/agents? Anyone? Anyone? [/Ben Stein]

I am still 'gung ho' on this project. At least, I think I am. What does gung ho mean again? :p

Ededed, I am at work so I can't d/l your test programs, but I will do so when I get home. I've liked all your sample programs so far.

I would take initiative to be a go-to guy and assign tasks and stuff if that's what it took to make this project roll, but since I'm not a programmer I'm afraid that might not work so well. Still, I could do everything but list programming tasks, and I *can* say things like "we need someone to make the pathfinding routines".

Who is still interested? Those of you who haven't read this whole thread, please give it a shot, there are some great ideas here, and we could use your ideas too.

[DaFalcon]

ededed, had a chance to play with your latest two test programs... I like 'em! :-)

I had fun clicking like crazy on the water to make some very tall waves :-) And I had fun moving my agents around on the screen. I can see why you'd want some jumping sprites!

Once again, I'd like some ideas from everyone on the look of our agents/lemmings, and I'll make up a bunch of sprites that we can use (at least for now) and we can get started finalizing some ideas. W_reade, have you had enough rest since after the contest to take on lead programming duties? Or are you up to the challenge, ededed? We really just need to get the ball rolling and then I think we'll have some nice solid contributions from the community. Especially if we can get Carlos involved, as he expressed interest earlier :-)

[David]

Why don't you make them really over-the-top cartoony agents who tip-toe around sneakily everywhere.

Maybe they could look a bit like this (http://david.emuscene.com/Pics/Hello.jpg). :)

[DaFalcon]

lol, David, he does kind of look like a lemming in that picture :)

[w_reade]

I am still interestedÖ but I'm still rather busy as well, and I promised myself I wouldn't start any new projects until I had a job - because if I did, I'd have a great time (programming away to the exclusion of everything else) until I starved to death.

However, I'm hoping that MAFFia will help to bounce me into employment soon (touch wood), and then I'd very much like to be involved.

Cheers
william

[DaFalcon]

well, hopefully MAFFia will rocket launch you into employment... perhaps with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food :-)

I was certainly impressed with the polish and solid gameplay :)

Of course, you'll also be wanting to test out those new iDevGames prizes ... right?

[DaFalcon]

So does everyone think that cartoony spy vs. spy type lemmings would look best? Or are there other ideas? Should the lemmings be 3D pre-rendered (I'd vote against this, only because I have little 3D modeling experience/skills) ...

[ededed]

Thats a funny picture David. I like it.

I like DaFalcon's graphics though but they should probably be a bit smaller (because the game should/could? run at twice the size but half the pixels so it runs fast and looks good) but the great thing about designing an engine is that we could (for example) have a screen where you choose the graphics for your team.

[geezusfreeek]

I'm still not even sure what method for drawing the graphics has been established. Is it going to be OpenGL or GWorlds??? Will it be Cocoa or Carbon??? (Can you tell what I want it to be? ;) )

I'm still in, but there will need to be at least a working demo before I can really contribute because I just plain stink at working from scratch. Who wants to lead this?

[OneSadCookie]

Coming from the "Huge game projects" thread, I think the first step is a clear, concise, coherent and, above all, achievable design document to set the bounds for the first version at this game.

There have been lots of ideas discussed in this thread, some more possible than others. The hard ones need to be weeded out -- they can wait for version 2.0. The large tasks need to be weeded out -- they can wait for version 2.0. Even the easy, quick things that don't immediately impact on gameplay need to be weeded out -- they can wait for version 1.5 or 2.0.

At that point, we can consider whether QuickDraw is a better choice than OpenGL, or whether Cocoa is a better choice than Carbon :p

[geezusfreeek]

I agree, but what I was really asking was who will be leading this (and most likely providing the design document as well)?

[ededed]

I really think it should be Carbon OpenGL or at least Cocoa OpenGL because of the advantages of rotation and nice effects would be possible (like earthquakes that spin the screen and rain and snow). I dont have any real ideas for the actual game though...

Can anyone please email me or upload a Carbon Port of any of those wierd tests I made?

[furballphat]

LAL lalaal I need to sing!

[ededed]

Yes I read that and completly agree, OpenGL is the way to go!

[AJ Infinity]

How the heck did I miss this post? Anyway, even though I've got about 3-4 other projects, but I'm always looking for more things to try my programming abilities on. I'll be here if you need help. Cocoa OpenGL (or, Shockwave 3D :); it also is OpenGL accelerated and it'll be easier to make a Lemmings game in this) is what we should use.

[Shivers]

sounds real cool,

I will be willing to help out with a design document or graphics if you need me.

[AJ Infinity]

I can write the AI engine and random level generation engine. Deforamable terrain: well, yeah. I've never tried a terragen engine in 2D. Don't look at me for art. As for sound (Sound Builder and Sound Studio). Yeah. Music. (Reason) Yeah. cutscenes....never mind. Leadership capabilities (no comment:) I'll allow someone else)

Is this going to be an Inkubator project?

[DaFalcon]

Do you want it to be an Inkubator project? :-)

This almost seems like the kind of effort that could be sold. I loev free (and open source) games for the mac, as witnessed by my participation in Snake Quest and Hooptie :-) but I think it would be a great goal to get a real talent pool together from those interested here at iDG to create a solid shareware game behind some kind of iDG development banner other than Inkubator. But I'd be more than willing to work on it in any form. As for leadership... ... ... ........ well, I don't think I have room in my schedule for it, but perhaps in time if nobody else has picked up the baton then I could get to work on a design document.

[AJ Infinity]

Sourceforge.net

Lets open source this. I have volunteered myself as project manager and assistant programmer.

[DaFalcon]

Speaking of SourceForge, it looks like there is already someone running with this type of idea:

http://nil.sourceforge.net/ (scroll down and take a look at the screenshots)

[furballphat]

I've played that game, it's nothing special. It is just like worms, except you only control one worm, it's realtime and not as fun. It is much more action oriented than the strategy game we're planning here.

As far as design docs, we could create a temporary page on the Mac Game Wiki to throw around ideas.

[AJ Infinity]

Since I'm involved, expect lots of violent humor and comic mischeif! :D

[AJ Infinity]

Whats the name of the game and what are the Lemmings like creatures? They have to be cute, remember.

[AJ Infinity]

How 'bout Piggies. In the intro, they look really cute at first (smiling, fat, and pink), but then they pull out AK-47's and gun down the camera. :) Fuzzy noise then blanks out the screen. :D

[ededed]

<harsh>
How 'bout Piggies. NO!
I've played that game, it's nothing special. Your just saying that because you lost too much.
I can write the AI engine and random level generation engine That would be very useful, please do that as soon as you can.
</harsh>
:D

[furballphat]

Originally posted by ededed

Your just saying that because you lost too much.

Curse those spikey balls!

[AJ Infinity]

Piggies did sound kinda ***.

[geezusfreeek]

I could think of worse.

[ededed]

I have a plan:
1. More graphics for lemmings and different types of agents.
2. Someone to program a proper basic version of the game. One that lets the agents just walk around a terrain.
3. Some ideas about the game.
4. Sound + music!!! That is very important in a game.

Also...
What about this game being top down?
There could be a system a bit like redfaction where you can blow some things up but some things dont blow up. If it was top down I could imagine it being a very good single player game, mission based. it could have a python (FurballPhat) scriptable engine and vehicles. It would have a console too.
I think it would really be great having a good engine like that. It would be like SQ but more extendable and use a easier (more user friendly) scripting system. All the objects in the game (Apart from scenery) would have x,y and rotation.
It could also be modded to make that MGS2 style game about the naked guy running away from pedestrians. But of course with a simple 2D rigid body physics engine there are so many types of games that could be made. I dont promise but I can try to make a rigid body physics engine (I at least know the theory).

[AJ Infinity]

Does this really need to be done in ObjC/OpenGL? If you all are on Jaguar, it won't be compatible with my Mac, with PCs, and with older Macs. i code more comfortably in Java than in ObjC.

[Josh]

Originally posted by AJ Infinity
Does this really need to be done in ObjC/OpenGL? If you all are on Jaguar, it won't be compatible with my Mac, with PCs, and with older Macs. i code more comfortably in Java than in ObjC. If you are running Mac OS X, it will be compatible with your Mac.

Java really isn't good for applications, much less games.

[DaFalcon]

One of the more unique ideas here is that this would be a side scrolling RTS, something that would help set it apart from every other RTS (that I can think of). So I'm not so sure about an overhead view...

[AJ Infinity]

No wonder I've never made a 2D game in Java. Actually, there was a 2D Java game called BlastApp that was really good. Look for it in the DevTools Examples.

[ededed]

FurballPhat is a liar, there is ONE negative post about a topdown version (thats a 1 not every 1 just 1!!).
[QUOTE]I can write the AI engine and level generation engine.[QUOTE]
Can you please do that then??

I dont think a side on RTS would really work, Most RTS's you need complecated statigies to try and pincer the other clan but a side on thing you would just need a more powerful army. One possibility would be that the landscape would wrap i.e. if you kept going in one direction you would end up where you started. I also dont know why this game has be and RTS it could be a GTA inspired maul'em'all where you get given missions. I would prefer that because it is much more extendible (and MUCH easier to make). It would allow you to either go solo or have a team of mercinaries. Another good thing (for network play) would be some-one could set a challenge (scripted python or somthing) and they would get a little money for everyone that failed it and they would have to pay someone who succeds. It would be good networked and scriptibal because someone could create a new car or character or weapon or something and show other people in the world, they could even give a challenge and that could be a reward.

[furballphat]

Originally posted by ededed
Most RTS's you need complecated statigies to try and pincer the other clan but a side on thing you would just need a more powerful army.

Ahh, but side on could introduce new strategies to do with making drops that can obly be passed from one side and (assuming we make the terrain collapsable) you could cave in your opponents tunnels from below.

[AJ Infinity]

AI: Let me take some time out of my day to steal some of Crystal War's RTS neural networks AI and port it to ObjC. Ouch.

Originally posted by furballphat
Ahh, but side on could introduce new strategies to do with making drops that can obly be passed from one side and (assuming we make the terrain collapsable) you could cave in your opponents tunnels from below.

RTS AI engines can be coded by just pretending that you are in the AI's situation and acting accordingly in that situation. CW's system works like this. Doing the AI for a Lemmings game should be fun.

Hey, maybe I'll just write the AI in psuedocode.

for those of you who haven't played Lemmings and want to so you can know how the game is played, I have a ROM of Lemmings 2 on my Mac and I'll email it to you if you want me to.

[codemattic]

Originally posted by AJ Infinity
RTS AI engines can be coded by just pretending that you are in the AI's situation and acting accordingly in that situation.

And the 'Understatement Award' goes to AJI! Isnt that also how you write a chess program? Just act like a chess grandmaster and program it to do what you would do in every situation.

Of course Ill shut up after I see the killer AI in Crystal War's realtime neural networks!

-Codemattic

[WaaMatt]

Wow... A Lemmings RTS would be so amazingly fun.

Who owns the rights to Lemmings these days? Is it still Psygnosis, or are they gone and forgotten? OR, would this just be LIKE Lemmings?

I didn't read every post, but I like the idea of Lemmings utilizing exploder's body chunks for stuff. Grab a few arms and legs and chuck 'em in a Lemming Processor and it churns out new ones... Casualties mean more lemmings! Yay!

While the original lemmings was side-scrolling, most RTS's are top-view (slightly angled). Maybe a more drastically angled view would be good so you can see what diggers (vertical or pike-armed diagonalers) are doing. Or, maybe it could have a rotating camera (Myth series) so you can even look below the playing field to see if a guy might fall through the ground into oblivian!

Believe me, if I was better at programming I would help in as many areas of this as I could (I do some graphics and sound when I feel inspired enough).

[WaaMatt]

Two more cents:

Have any of you seen The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker for the GameCube? What if the Lemmings looked like that? All cartoony with facial expressions. (I guess they'd be too small for facial expressions).

The more sneaking the better.

[AJ Infinity]

Originally posted by codemattic
And the 'Understatement Award' goes to AJI! Isnt that also how you write a chess program? Just act like a chess grandmaster and program it to do what you would do in every situation.

Of course Ill shut up after I see the killer AI in Crystal War's realtime neural networks!

-Codemattic

Thanks, codemattic. I got this like for strategy from my father (big chess and military strategy fan)

Why Crystal War was never completed: it was way too big of a project for a new developer like me. The art was supposed to be awesome and same with the multiplayer gameplay. I plan to finish Crystal War sometime later. or, I may make a simpler game with low art content and no multiplayer. In fact, a friend said he'd rather see a realtime 3D version of Crystal War with head to head net gameplay. :ninja: (what does the ninja smilie mean anyway? :D)

[AJ Infinity]

I've been trying to figure out how the heck to do a randomly generating level system for a Lemmings game and I have found out that it's not the best way. I have to write more code than I need to to construct challenging levels that are generated randomly. DaFalcon, if you can do the tile art for cannons, walls, floor pieces, and theme pieces (like pyramids for the Egyptian theme and igloos for the Arctic theme), I can write a map based level system. I figured out how to "erase" areas where bombs explode and where Lemmings dig, also.

[DaFalcon]

Any specs, AJ? Color limits? Alpha channels? Solid-colored masks? Size limitations? If you let me, I'll go all out and create a million-color 356x709 pyramid with full alpha transparancy, so I figured I'd ask first :-)

BTW, I didn't say it would be a *great* million-color 356x709 pyramid with full alpha transparancy either...

[AJ Infinity]

256x256, JPG's or BMP's (I'll use GraphicConverter to convert them to SGI BW's). Dunno how to work with alpha in GL, but I do in Flash. :D

[DaFalcon]

*cough* bump *cough*

[AJ Infinity]

Between the time of the last post I made in this thread (the one before this one) and now I learned how to program apha in OpenGL. But in C++ and not in Cocoa. Not really in the mood to program for a Lemmings game anyway (never have liked them:))

BTW, I know only how to read TGA and BMP files. Need to learn PNG now.

Anyway though, do BMPs and solid colored masks.

[ThrottleMonkey]

Forget the name "Lemming". What is cute and lives underground that makes tunnels?

GOPHERS!

So... Either Gopher or GroundHogs would be an appropriate name. Easily drawn/modeled too.

[ThrottleMonkey]

Personally, I wouldn't try to overcomplicate things by making the number of units infinite and pouring from the sky (who ever heard of the sky opening underground anyway unless it was a straight upward tunnel?)

Also, what would be the point of being able to control the units by key commands anyway, instead of generic tasks? It would be much more fun, funny & challenging to have the gophers be running around doing their task (ie, patrolling/standing guard of a tunnel with a weapon) rather than clicking and trying to get the gopher to shoot whatever you're trying to physically aim at.

You also kind of get the Omnipotent feel when you're watching little creatures do your bidding instead of constantly babysitting them.

And right now I just got another idea for the characters. Why not make it an ant game? Well, Gophers ARE cuter...

Just my two cents.