Shareware sales numbers?

[Bachus]

Does anyone have any hard numbers on what a shareware author should expect to see when s/he sells his/her product? The only numbers I've ever seen are in this article (http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/09/30/dev_osx.html), but I'd like to see something more concrete than that.

Basically I'm looking for something like: "Hi. I've released X game, in x genre, and I sold x copies in x amount of time at x dollars per copy." Surely I can't be the only one wanting to see info like this and wondering why it's never available anywhere.

Can't hurt to ask right?

[Silent Error]

Those numbers aren't going to really help you out any since they're dependent on quality of product, distribution method, how actively the product was marketed, etc.

I think a better series of questions would be;

Has anybody released a shareware game?
Where did you distribute it to?
How many downloads (total) did you get in x amount of time?
How many people registered in x amount of time?
What kind of marketing did you do?
Did you spend any money on marketing? If so, how much?
Did you recoup the cost of developing and marketing the product?
Did you profit? If so, how much?

I know this probably isn't at all helpful, but I thought I'd share anyway. :D

Edit: Thought up some more questions. Should probably make it a friggin' questionnaire and post it out on the net somewhere to try and generate some statistics. Naw, I'm too lazy... :p

[Carlos Camacho]

I made a survey about 2 years ago. I can dig it up on my HD someplace. Actually, I am planning on doing a new survey soon. So, if you need more data, add your question to this list.

[skyhawk]

Originally posted by Bachus
"Hi. I've released X game, in x genre, and I sold x copies in x amount of time at x dollars per copy." Surely I can't be the only one wanting to see info like this and wondering why it's never available anywhere.

Can't hurt to ask right?

Hi, I'm Brian Ramagli and I released network only Battleship game as shareware in nov. 2001. It has received over 20,000 downloads from cnet (never released on versiontracker). I have sold 0 copies in 2 years at $10 a copy.... my guess, that is not really the kind of game you make shareware. Then again, it didn't give them any incentive to register. Just a nag dialog which didn't even wait for x amount of time. My advice, make cooler games than network battleship. :D

[EDIT] we also released this a few months after OS X came out. Plus it was carbon.

[IBethune]

In August 2002 I released Patience (which is AFAIK the only native patience game for OS X). It has a 'please support shareware' message, but does not require the user to register, so obviously I have not recieved any registrations, but that's not really the point.

The game can be downloaded from www.pyramid-productions.net and it's also listed on download.com (before they started charging), macgamefiles, tucows, info-mac etc. etc. I also got it onto the MacWorld Christmas compendium CD which was cool. Since then I have recieved ~13,000 downloads from download.com so I reckon the game has been downloaded/installed ~15,000 times, which is not bad for a first time :)

The only thing is, you think "if only I could have had £1 for every copy..." - wishful thinking, but nice!

- Iain

[Jake]

I realeased the game Escape, and have had about 4000 downloads. I have had 12 registers, averaging at 6.00 dollars each. It has been available for 2 months, and you can choose how much you want to pay for the game.

It was my first shareware game, and in 2 months it has allready payed for a year of hosting and 2 years domain name. I am happy with the sales, they are about what I expected (well I eather expected no registers, or this amount).

My next game is going to be ALOT better then Escape, and I am hoping to sell it to some place like ambrossia. I will have a screenshot in a while, and the final version should be done by summer.

[jamie]

The only thing is, you think "if only I could have had £1 for every copy..." - wishful thinking, but nice!


yeah, and easy way to do very small 'micro' payments like that would be a nice thing for the really small time developer. If someone could pay $1 on an impulse buy for a cute and fun 'little' game and the developer could end up with $5,000 or $10,000 after a years time how nice would that be? :)

[monteboyd]

I released Slope Rider (OpenGL snowboarding game) on 8th August 2002. I have received over 600 (don't have exact count handy) registrations at $15US.

Marketing included press releases to game sites and Mac news sites and submitting the game to any download site and magazine with a cover CD that I could find.

[Carlos Camacho]

Sloperider has also been listed as a top download on www.macgamefiles.com for some time. That must help.

My "guess" that the shareware games with best "sales" must be some Ambrosia titles, Airburst, Burning Monkey Solitaire and Realmz (though it might be going down these days.... since I haven't updated in years ;) )

Cheers

[Feanor]

Originally posted by monteboyd
I released Slope Rider (OpenGL snowboarding game) on 8th August 2002. I have received over 600 (don't have exact count handy) registrations at $15US.


What is your break even point?

[monteboyd]

Originally posted by Feanor
What is your break even point?

That's difficult to say, I didn't really have a worked out budget for the development. I was able to buy a new computer at about the 150 sale point, that was my main milestone.

[David]

wow :blink:

That's very cool :D

[DaFalcon]

Come on, everyone participate here.

Snake Quest has not made any money because it is free, so I can't really report.

I once (on 8/5/02) ran around and gathered these numbers to get an idea of distribution of a game that is updated a few times a year and listed on most download sites:

Since its inital release on Dec 21, 2000, Snake Quest has been updated 9 times and has been downloaded:

17,007 times from Download.com
10,104 times from Version Tracker
6,509 times from MacUpdate.com
4,128 times from macgamefiles.com

which is nearly 2,000 downloads a month (more than 60 each and every day) from these listings alone...

[jamie]

For penguin power! I have these numbers:

Version Tracker: 3,381
MacUpdate: 3,360
MacGameFiles: 1,352
penguin power! site: 2,386

total: 10,479

Its a free game too so there are no registrations, and its been available since the date of the contest and updated twice.

[Carlos Camacho]

jamie,

You forgot to factor in that it was on the CD of MacPeople Japan.

[jamie]

Good point, I wonder what kind of circulation MacPeople gets?

[Carlos Camacho]

The magazine is at about 80% of the bookstores in my town of 250,000. It is safe to say all of Japan had access to the magazine. (BTW, Japanese don't subscribe to magazines as a rule but buy them from a bookstore.)

Cheers

[Dr. Light]

How about making a simple RPG, releasing a base version for free, and then charging for additional levels or "Stories" or "Campaigns", or something?

[jSTIN]

My first game, which is Breakthrough, got about 10,000 downloads. At first I didn't get any registrations, but after it was put on the MacAddict CD (which made me happy) I started getting some registrations (about 30). I charge $10 for it. It took about 7 months to get the 30 sales.

My other game, BalloonTyper, got around 15 regs. It has about 7,000 downloads. I don't remember the time period. I charge $7 for it, and $100 for a site license. The cool thing is that a school bought the site license.

I also made another game that got 1 registration, over a 8 month period.

BlockWars got none, but I hardly did any promotion. It's going to be re-released as something more improved.

I still get sales every now and then, but not very often (about once every 2 months)

The only way I distributed the game was on download sites (except for the MacAddict CD which helped the most).

-Justin

[joephish]

Hmm, these figures are sounding a bit depressing.

When I made a game for the PC using BlitzBasic, I sold it to the publisher who ONLY deals with Blitz-made games (they are a kind of supporting company to blitzbasic).

I made a one-off £800 ($1200ish). Not bad, given that it was a smallish puzzle game. Enough to buy myself an iPod and buy a lot more drink at uni than I would've done otherwise ;-)

I've moved onto my first Mac game now, and am planning to sell it as shareware.

It seems that the general concensus is that I should
1) Make it a REALLY great game
2) Make it something which Mac users haven't really seen before
3) Make sure I try to get it EVERYWHERE, including the net, magazine cover CDs etc
4) Put a decent price on it and decent reasons to buy the full version. (only include a few of the most interesting levels, add nag messages etc).

...otherwise I haven't got a hope of hitting that £800 mark again.

[David]

If you want to make money it would be best to either make it cross-platform or get some kind of sweet bundle deal with Apple like Pangea, though that would be difficult.

The game just has to be at least as good as the competition or few will buy it, which is part of why I'm making my weird animal fighting game. The only competition is oni, which was, frankly, not finished.

[skyhawk]

Originally posted by David
If you want to make money it would be best to either make it cross-platform or get some kind of sweet bundle deal with Apple like Pangea, though that would be difficult.

if you bundle with apple... you are guarenteed a couple thousands (I'm seeing in the 5 figures). But that is mandatory for you to make money. A good game with an easy to use registration will easily pick up $1,000 - $2,000. Keep in mind that I said good game. Pong is not a good game (well, it might be, but not enough to buy). Tetris is not a good game. Unique puzzle games are good games. Games with stories, game with action, games with addiction. Games with polish and all the bugs squashed. If you try to release a game with a GLARING bug in it that prevents gameplay, I guarentee your sales will be less than $10. A well polished game will increase your sales total by around 10% versus the same game unpolished.

[DaFalcon]

When I made a game for the PC using BlitzBasic, I sold it to the publisher who ONLY deals with Blitz-made games (they are a kind of supporting company to blitzbasic).

So who would be interested in a supporting company like this for iDG? Who would be interested in participating and would anyone be interested in setting it up? Is it better to get $XXX up front and sell the rights to your game, or $X per sale and just license the rights?

[Jake]

Does anyone know what you have to do to get a game on the MacAddict CD? I have seen many crappy games on their CDs and they won't put mine on. I know my game (Escape) isnt the best, but I think its pretty decent and I have had alot of good feedback from users asking for more levels. I am at the point now where I am going to email them one a week untill they respond... waiting a month and a half isnt working...

[skyhawk]

macaddict charges you $500 for placement on CD unless THEY REALLY like your game.

[Dr. Light]

Maybe iDevgames could have a CD that people could buy, containing the year's free uDevgame games, and then special "Editor's picks" included along with it. Kinda like a games bundle. Could generate revenue and put small games more out in the open. Think big-start small



[Dr. Light shields his head as Camacho reaches for what looks like a giant club]

**THUNK!***

[He breathes a sign of relief upon finding out its only a "dunce" hat]

[Matt Brown]

Think someone suggested that already. I'd buy it every edition if it were there. But since I'm broke anyway...:lol:

[macboy]

Originally posted by Dr. Light
[Dr. Light shields his head as Camacho reaches for what looks like a giant club]

**THUNK!***

[He breathes a sign of relief upon finding out its only a "dunce" hat] LOL :lol:

[kemalyun]

I've uploaded ZADOR to Versiontracker only, I think it has been on the MacAddict CD a year ago, too. I didn't track the downloads, but I've got about 430 registrations at $15 to $17 until now, that's in about two years (I guess), which makes, after deducting the KAGI-fee, about $5800. That's not bad in my opinion, although I guess Ambrosia makes much more with their games.

To get registrations, you'll need

a) a really good game. "good" doesn't mean 3D or with state-of-the-art gfx, it means fun, challenging, playable, polished.

b) a reason why users should register. Best way is to include some small number of levels so you can play at least 10 to 15 minutes and are left with the desire to see more. Then show the user what he gets when registering, i.e. screenshots of the missing levels etc.

Read the articles by Steve Pavlina about that topic.

And yes, a iPlayGames CD would be cool. It's easy to do: Carlos should register iDevGames at Kagi, then sign up with Swiftcd.com, let Idevgamers upload their games by ftp to a special place, filter the crap out and send it to swiftcd. Then put a link on the idevgames page and that's it. The rest will be done by Kagi and SwiftCD, and IDevgames gets some "donations".

Windooze leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

[Jake]

Originally posted by kemalyun
I've uploaded ZADOR to Versiontracker only, I think it has been on the MacAddict CD a year ago, too. I didn't track the downloads, but I've got about 430 registrations at $15 to $17 until now, that's in about two years (I guess), which makes, after deducting the KAGI-fee, about $5800. That's not bad in my opinion, although I guess Ambrosia makes much more with their games.


Nice! I know you didnt track the downloads, but how much of that is from the CDs do you think, and how much from CDs?

[Dr. Light]

I had meant to ask you that, Kemal. Looks like some good numbers. How do you think "Microbian" will do once its all finished up? I am hoping it will do well because 99% will be going into my college fund. :)

[Najdorf]

I guess RPG' s are good shareware. I guess they need a lot of work too. Take a game like "Yipe! 3", that was very nice, though not beeing excellent It made me "think" (though not really) about registering. Just as the great avernum series (oh, my, those really are GREAT!...).
Actually the only product I registered in my life is TNT Basic. I really think I' ll never register a game, not even Tony Hawk skating for 5 $. They are only games, and I' ll never register something so futile. Actually a program as TNT basic is half a game half a working program, I think that' s the way to go, maximum flexibility.

[jamie]

They are only games, and I' ll never register something so futile

I'm curious, if they are so futile why waste even five minutes of your valuable time on earth playing them or creating them?

[Najdorf]

Hmm, that' s a good question...

Ok, making games is not so futile as playing them.

I actually also play games a bit. But I actually feel playing a good game is just as futile as playing a bad game, so, since I don' t wanna waist money for bad games, I won' t waist money for good games either.

[jamie]

interesting, so making the game is more a form of creative expression for you than so much the enjoyment of playing the game during and after production and the pleasure of knowing other are enjoying your game?

[Hog]

Originally posted by Najdorf

I actually also play games a bit. But I actually feel playing a good game is just as futile as playing a bad game, so, since I don' t wanna waist money for bad games, I won' t waist money for good games either.

that's not really a positive attitude as to becoming a great game developer...
you have to have a feeling for knowing what makes people pay for the games they play

[griffin239]

IGNORE EVERYTHING UP HERE FOR A MINUTE GO DOWN TO THE STARS FIRST !!!
I think the iPlayGames CD is not the way to go, you are incurring costs before making any profit.
if anything we either make a cuthroat deal or hijack the insidemacgames.com CD every Christmas, because I subscribed to it for a year and only got bunk....nothing at all I didn't get from versiontracker 2 -3 months earlier.

Here's another distrbution method you all are ignoring: Peer to Peer.

When I released Antack I set up a carracho server, put it on 6 trackers, and watched
100 downloads a day, on top of what was going on at my web host..which was
phenomenal. As someone said "if I only had $1 for every download" --- since it was cross platform....$80,000 in my hand today ooooh man! The IRS would be knocking down my door.
I've been without income since releasing it, so ...those numbers are over 3 times what I made working like a dog in the past 3 years!

So here's a suggestion, if there is room somewhere at iDevGames.com we compile a largish
amount of games (these could be taken offline after upload), pack them into a .dmg and hit the peer to peer networks en masse for a week every month, using the bandwidth we already pay too much for instead of incuring print/burn/shipping costs with CD media. Let the customers back it up to Cd themselves. :ninja: Turn the tide of peer-to-peer software piracy against itself :ninja:
I used this method as well..dumping Antack on every server I could get into, until I got tired, and figure veriontracker was doing a faster job than I was.



Another option. iDevGames sets up distrubution through a pay to play subscription method.
You pay, you get a time limited password, a download limit, and games based on what you
donate/pay for. There could be a "Pick a game from list A, B, and C" type of option.
Throwing in a chance to win something more expensive than what you pay for might be
a good tactic.

************************************************** *********************
Another option, we compile, we beg, plead, sell our souls to Apple to get on the iDisk and in their emails with our own iDevGames folder in the Software folder.

Carlos, can you make a petition
"We the under representated, under payed, malnourished developers seek support by the Corporation and Community"

That sounds like a good option.
************* ******************* *************
I'm online with Apple Games Marketing now....

Me: Hey Rich, what do you think it would take to get idevgames developers represented on the idisk in their own folder?
Rich: GREAT IDEA! I can check into that but it would help to get a 'pitch' email from iDevGames to help sell it with some bullet p[oints as to why that would be a good thing.
Me: perfect will post that right away...thanks!
Rich: cool


************************************************** ***********************


YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST FOLKS, WE HAVE A SHOT! CARLOS GET CRACKIN ON THAT BULLET POINTED PITCH, and lets all somehow sign it!!!


I'm going to post this again in a new thread....so it makes some waves!

[kemalyun]

Seems like no one knows about SwiftCD. The method I suggested will cost nothing! Signing up with KAGI is free and SwiftCD also! They only charge when a CD is ordered, and they burn, label and mail it automatically after KAGI sends the payment message, then the cost for the CD is deducted from the KAGI money, so if SwiftCD charges, for example, $3.50 including shipping and the CD is being sold for, let's say, $8 at KAGI, then there's a profit of 4.50 less the KAGI fee at the end. And there are no setup costs whatsoever and the CD can be updated whenever Carlos would like to by simply uploading a new .SIT file to SwiftCD. And you can even create KAGI subscribed payments to offer people a new CD every month.

And I don't think that RPG's are games a lone-wolf developer can create in a way they will be registered. If you write a game of a kind which already offers a lot of others, yours has to be better or at least of the same quality. Create something new! I know, that's difficult, but that's the art.

[griffin239]

So lets see this math, assume insidemacgames.com uses this service and KAGI (http://www2.kagi.com/home/services.html#discounts)

Subscription = $35
12 CD's a year / $35 = 2.92 a cd gross income per sale

100 orders = $3500 KAGI will take 9.5% or $332.5

100 0rders a year - Kagi fee = 3167.5 left of gross sales before Swift CD costs (http://www.swiftcd.com/FAQ/Pricing.htm#bulk)

SwitfCD charges $6.95 for the basic CD with shipping to individual addresses.
6.95 x 1200 CD's a year = $8340

Gross sales - KAGI - SwitfCD =-$5172.5 / 12 months -$431.04 a month

How Does insidemacgames.com do it??? probably Macplay, Destineer, Id, etc advertisements and software placement....and bulk orders to their location, and labeling and bulk mailing set ups of their own.

What would be on an iPlayGames CD? iDevgames has 490 forum members.
If each of us has a 1 meg game, well thats 490 games to a disk.
If each of us "subscribed" to be on the disk for $12 per annum that would cover the costs.
Not everyone has a game and not all members are active, so its a gamble.
Of course if you consider those biotches at CNET charge $99 a month with a 3 month minmum for just ADVERTISING,I could have paid for nearly 25 years of being on the disk already!!!!

So its not totaly impossible, and a better option than CNET by far.

Thoughts? check my math and data...this was cursory research.

[Dr. Light]

Stop it! Stop it! Your making my head spin!

_:wacko:
_/|\
'_/\


:)

[griffin239]

You think thats bad..you should see the legal and tax stuff for owning a small business, head spinning produces enough motion to cause tornados.
I had to drop my small business...tax forms and fees for a company with zero clients. ugh.

[kelvin]

First off, you can do subscriptions via paypal which will run you about 3%. As for swiftCD, you don't have to get raped by their all in one package.

here's a breakdown:
$3.00 for print and duplicate (100-299 CDs bulk)
$0.10 for packing sleeve (or window sleeve, eitherway)
$3.10 total to your doorstep

$0.60 to mail each individual to your subscriber via usps.

if your volume is 2500+ then swift will cost you $2.10 per CD. or roughly $32/year with your own shipping.

[griffin239]

Here we go again with kelvin's math.
$3.10 per CD + .60 shipping x 100 subscriptions = $370 a month in CD/shipping cost.
x 6 months = $2220 (i forgot insidemacgames was bi-monthly)
x 12 months = $4440

$35 x 100 - 3% paypal = $3395 - $2220 = $1175 yr / 12 = $97.91 a month profit.

A bi- monthly CD could ..almost cover Carlos' uDevGame costs, or something.

But if you do the bulk mail deal from Swift, someone is going to have
to label all those CD's at home, keep track of mailing lists/address changes, pay for printing paper and toner for printing the labels and actually take them to the post office.
So there is a time=money equation to throw in.

Check this out
41 uDevGame 2002 developers x $15 = $615, all the games in one big archive
on the MacAddict CD = $500. What a small price for fame.

There are possibilites still to be explored...

[Carlos Camacho]

I seem to be late to this party....

David Stark and I are (have been) working on an article on shareware. Looks like I need to read everything here so we can improve our article.

Anyhow, about the various ideas. They all sound interesting. I feel at this point, I need to take little steps, this way I don't "fall down." It took awhile to get to this point, and looking around, I see a really nice community. I also see good stuff coming out of this community, like Kiki the Nanobot at MacWorld, Rocco over at Freeverse and so on. My main goal must be to have the site running well, and to also get people into positions to take off the load from my daily running around. Of course, schemes of making the site money as well as forming alliances are also heavy on my mind.

What I want to do sometime is have a fire-side chat with everyone on ways we can leverage this community, our contacts, our know-how towards improving the state of the shareware business.

Well, I am in the middle of trying for the 300th time to get my PC to work so I have to cut out of this thread for now.. (I HAVE seen the dark side.)

Cheers

[griffin239]

Originally posted by Camacho
I seem to be late to this party....
Well, I am in the middle of trying for the 300th time to get my PC to work so I have to cut out of this thread for now.. (I HAVE seen the dark side.)


Once again Windows holds down another good man.
May he breaks the chains of bondage and be free!