Does the MacOS platform need another indie publisher?

[DCoder]

Sure there's Ambrosia and GarageGames and a few others (those two came to me off the top of my head). There's also the big boys like Omni or MacPlay or Aspyr (no implication that Ambrosia or GG aren't big boys!). Not to mention that the Mac has always been a platform for self-expression and self-publishing. :D

For about the last 6 months I've been (mostly) lurking here and reading everything I can about shareware / indie publishing.

As a developer forum, I'm hoping that I can promote some discussion here that will help me guage the desire / necessity / acceptance / rejection of becoming an Indie Publisher.

So, to formalize this question... Please tell me what you think about indie publishers... Have you had a game published through one? Do you self-publish? Is your publishing deal exclusive? Care to divulge (in loose terms) your conditions? Do you trust publishers? Do you loathe them? Are there too many? Too few? What are the characteristics of a "Good Publisher"? What are the character flaws of a "Bad Publisher"?

Fundamentally, what do you think makes a good publisher?

-daniel

[Carlos Camacho]

If you look through the iDG hosting thread, which perhaps you have, you may gleam some information.

The question is, do you want to be a "brand" like Ambrosia or just a middle-man like KAGI. Seems to me, many people here are looking for an alternative to KAGI. So, at some point, we (iDG) will venture into that world. If you are looking at branding, like Ambrosia, then you may face a tough road. Like Phelios, Inc., they are "new" kid on the block with some nice games. Yet, I don't feel like they are getting that much press. That said, the Mac market is smaller so it is a tad easier to get noticed/get press than other platforms I think. So with time, a string of good games will have people eagerly awaiting your every release. The other thing that comes to mind is that Ambrosia has been around for some time, and so has the support (people and server) wise that is hard to match IMHO. Also, from what I understand, they work with the dev and also contribute some custom code (like for payments). But I'm no expert so I am sure some people connected to Ambrosia will be able to set me straight.

Not sure if I said anything helpful.

>Do you loathe them?
I think you may get some people say, "They rot!" But perhaps many people never look deeply into the business end of things. ie They feel they should get a bigger piece of the pie for their coding work, and don't see the costs involved in support, etc..

>Fundamentally, what do you think makes a good publisher?
1. Titles are consistant in quality (ie you don't see sh*t next to gems)
2. Loyalty from users. (ie users know the publisher makes good games and offers good game play value, so they come each time a new game is announced)
3. Honors payments and pays on time
4. Works hard at doing PR for your game, during the initial release and there after
5. Takes good care of the day to day to allow the dev team to concentrate on game dev
6. Consistant track record with devs (ie doesn't screw every 3rd guy)
7. Ability to assist in worldwide marketing of game
8. Industry connections
9. Website that can market and distribute the games effectively

My two yen....

p.s. As Griggs said in the thread I mentioned about (iDG hosting), we will need a trusted person to handle some aspect of our middle-man venture when the time is right. So, if this thread goes no where, let us know if we can work together at some point. Ditto for others.

Cheers

[gatti]

From my perspective, it seems like a mix.

Many people here are self-publishing games on their own. However, there are also a fair share of other developers that may want to be under a publisher, but might not have the contacts or money to fund asset development (art/music/sound effects). These elements are integral to the presentation/quality of a game.

As a publisher you would mainly play the role of marketing and selling the products. Are there any additional roles that you'll play?

[DCoder]

Originally posted by gatti
...there are also a fair share of other developers that may want to be under a publisher, but might not have the contacts or money to fund asset development (art/music/sound effects). These elements are integral to the presentation/quality of a game.

Gatti, I notice from your post here (http://idevgames.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3388) that we are thinking along very similar lines. As I have done research, I have come to find that there are lots of independent game developers that simply just love to program and could care less about building a web presence and marketing a game. At the other end of the spectrum are those who do everything 100% in-house. In the middle are those who want to build great games and would love to sell them, but they just don't have the money or the inclination. That's where I hope to step in.

As I begin to ramp up, I hope to establish relationships with organizations and individuals that can provide that much desired asset development and I really hope that I find game developers/producers who are willing to work with a publisher to create a 100% top-tier game, but push it through a "shareware" or more accurately, online distribution model. It's definitely imperative to find developers who are willing and able to recognize that last 10% of production that polishes the game is critical to success. I know that there are also plenty of developers who've been burned by "indie publishers" or feel like their creative liberty has been revoked by a publisher. Perhaps I'm altruistic, but I'm hoping to identify the perfect middle ground where publisher / developer collaboration is paramount.

As a publisher you would mainly play the role of marketing and selling the products. Are there any additional roles that you'll play?

Well, let's see. You definitely hit on two of the "biggies"...

distribution
sales (including merchant processing)
customer service
returns
book-keeping / pay-out
...(?)


What other roles should a good publisher play (with respect to the developer)?

Originally posted by Camacho
The question is, do you want to be a "brand" like Ambrosia or just a middle-man like KAGI. Seems to me, many people here are looking for an alternative to KAGI.

Carlos,

My ultimate goal is to create a "brand". From all of my research, I've found that there are a plethora of middleware solutions for e-commerce such as Kagi. Esellerate, RegNow, RegShare, 2Checkout, SWReg, and BMT Micro all come to mind.

For me, the purpose is to provide a unfied niche market brand. My plan is to build a strong customer base in a very defined market segment with a particular product type. Again, through research, I've identified the product type and what I hope to be the target market. As I continue investigation, I broaden my understanding and narrow the focus, but not too much.

I think you may get some people say, "They rot!" But perhaps many people never look deeply into the business end of things. ie They feel they should get a bigger piece of the pie for their coding work, and don't see the costs involved in support, etc..

I don't know. Most of the people I've talked to who have the "They rot!" attitude generally have that attitude about a specific publisher that they feel they have been slighted by in the past.

I do have a (preliminary) plan for hoping to avoid a lot of that confusion that you outline:

Provide better-than-average pay-out (gross, not net!) on a strict schedule (monthly/quarterly)
Use simple, unobtrusive, but explicit contracts
Keep solid sales figures up to date (near realtime insight) for the benefit of the developer
Document in detail all marketing plans for any product, including a release schedule that outlines a strong timeline
Provide (confidential) insight into the business-side of distribution to help the developer/producer understand the costs involved.
Manage the entire post-sale relationship with the customer, to remove the burden from the developer ("I deal with the ... customers so the engineers don't have to! I have people skills! I am good at dealing with people, can't you understand that!" -Tom Smykowski, Office Space)

Also, thanks for that big list of "what makes a good publisher"! I'm gonna print that out and put it up on my bulletin board! Along the same, lines, but more developer-centric, are there other things developers care about when dealing with a (potential) publisher?

Thanks for the feedback, it's helped tremendously. I do hope this thread grows a little more (information is critical when starting a new business!!!).

[jSTIN]

Here is my opinion. I have made a few simple games by myself. I made the graghics, sound, etc. I then got a website and put them on it. I didn't do any PRs or any marketing. At the time I didn't see the need. I just got the games listed on macgamefiles.com, download.com, etc. I got very few registrations. I made enough money to pay for my website and software.

I recently made a new game (BlockWars). It probably has the best polish of all the games I made. I thought it would do well. I posted it on my website and put it on macgamefiles etc. and got no registrations. So I asked a few publishers to see if they like BlockWars. So I now am working with a publisher instead of being completely independent. The game is going through some changes now, to make it better. New graghics, new sounds, a new title, new gameplay elements, and the like.

I really like working with a publisher. Some of the things I like is that he makes suggestions and ideas to add to the game. It helps to inspire you to keep working. Not having to worry about artwork is also very nice. When you have really good artists drawing for your game, and it doesn't cost you a cent, it lets you concentrate on gameplay more.

The biggest part that I like (although the game hasn't been released yet) is the distribution and marketing that a publisher does. I remeber before I had a publisher how worried I'd be about getting registrations. Now It is up to the publisher, and I don't have to worry about it.


Well, let's see. You definitely hit on two of the "biggies"...


* distribution
* sales (including merchant processing)
* customer service
* returns
* book-keeping / pay-out
* ...(?)



I'd add a few things too, things I want as a developer.

- I like the publisher giving me ideas (But to keep a indie developer working with a publidher happy you need to let the developer have control of the game. Indie developers looking for a publisher want someone to help them with the game, not to take it over).

- A publisher should be able to provide game assets, if needed.

- A publisher should check on the progress every now and then to see how the game is coming. He should give positive feedback and constuctive critisism. He should encourage the devolper.


Thats all for now.

-Justin

[DCoder]

Originally posted by jSTIN
So I now am working with a publisher instead of being completely independent.

Justin,

Wow, that's awesome! Congratulations on a) finding a publisher and b) finding a publisher who's willing to contribute to the production of the game.

I like the publisher giving me ideas
A publisher should be able to provide game assets, if needed.
A publisher should check on the progress [and] encourage the devolper

More excellent advice. Those were all concepts floating around in my head, but not really formalized. I will definitely be working them into my business plan!!!

If you don't mind me asking (and if you're not contractually bound to stay silent), do you mind letting us know who the publisher is and whether it's an exclusive deal or if you will also be able to market the game outside the publisher's control?

-daniel

[Bachus]

The thing I want to see in a new Mac publisher is being able to get my game(s) on store shelves.

While a new web-only publisher could be nice, someone who could get me in stores is far more appealing.

[DCoder]

Originally posted by Bachus
The thing I want to see in a new Mac publisher is being able to get my game(s) on store shelves.

While a new web-only publisher could be nice, someone who could get me in stores is far more appealing.

Perhaps I'm blind to it, but I see this as a fundamental flaw of game development (and software publishing, in general).

For all intents and purposes, it's impossible to compete on store shelves with the likes of Macromedia, Adobe, EA, Blizzard, etc. The Mac retail market (at least where I've seen a retail presence) is relegated to a few corner shelves and the production costs and deal-making/back-scratching that accompanies retail publishing just puts it out of reach -- in other words, there's no such thing as a level playing field. Not to mention the fact, that in general, the market targeted by the retail industry leans toward the "hardcore gamer".

That's not a market that I'm really hoping to target. My plan is to localize the effort to buyers who are comfortable with an online purchase, and wouldn't generally buy software off of store shelves. They also (hopefully) expect a different style of gaming experience.

Of course, this could just be a difference in the market being targetted. I'm definitely not trying to justify why your work shouldn't be retail. In general, though, I expect that titles that can support retail sales, will (eventually) make it to a retail outlet (but that's an assumption on my part).

-daniel

[skyhawk]

Originally posted by DCoder

Along the same, lines, but more developer-centric, are there other things developers care about when dealing with a (potential) publisher?


Well, I would like a publisher to be rather independent, yet close at the same time. For me, I want to work on my as my own, and when it is good and ready (I'm assuming they like it too) then I hand it off to them. They send me final copy (in whatever form) and I say go. THen I just sit back and receive paychecks. Of course I would also want to get all of my fan mail and receive any of the feedbacks. I like to stay close with my customers and hear what they say. And above all, if I release an update (ie patch), I would like it integrated as quickly as possible.

this has been my $.02... yet it's only gave a penny for my thought... someones making a penny

[gatti]

Originally posted by DCoder
Gatti, I notice from your post here (http://idevgames.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3388) that we are thinking along very similar lines. As I have done research, I have come to find that there are lots of independent game developers that simply just love to program and could care less about building a web presence and marketing a game. In the middle are those who want to build great games and would love to sell them, but they just don't have the money or the inclination. That's where I hope to step in.

My team's goals are simply to finance the development process. Hopefully the money given to the developer assists with hardware/software purchases, or 2nd Party resource development. We won't be involved with any marketing or distribution of the product.

Our services more or less support eachother. ProRattaFactor could possibly fund the project, and you would market and sell it. With that kind of scenario, the developer has money coming in at all times!

[jSTIN]

Originally posted by DCoder

If you don't mind me asking (and if you're not contractually bound to stay silent), do you mind letting us know who the publisher is and whether it's an exclusive deal or if you will also be able to market the game outside the publisher's control?



My publisher isn't really restricting. He is very fair in the way he deals. I don't want to say too much until the game is closer to being released, but I can promote the game on my own website and stuff (It has to have a link to the official page). I don't really feel like doing any other marketing. That is why I want a publisher, to do marketing.

Originally posted by Bachus


The thing I want to see in a new Mac publisher is being able to get my game(s) on store shelves.



A good publisher that can get you in stores is Freeverse Software. Actually, I just went to a Apple Store to buy a Freeverse title (Kick Off 02) for my brother's birthday. When I was at the store I noticed how low some of the prices on games were. Some of these games were selling for $40 a while back, and now they are only $10.

I think shareware can be better for two reasons.

1. You don't have packing costs.

2. The price won't drop after a while.


If you can make high quality shareware, (like Ambrosia does) I think thats the best way to go.

Of course stores do have a lot of benefits too. One of them is that people like to be able to have a tangible objects when they buy. Another is that people can buy on impulses in stores more easily. That is just a few of them.



-Justin

[DaFalcon]

In much of my recent thinking/introspection, I've realized that I do best running with other people on their ideas. I do okay with my own ideas, but I sometimes lack the motivation and drive. When I am working with someone else on their ideas, something clicks and we end up driving each other.

With those thoughts in mind, I've decided to ask if you're looking for any people to be a part of the publishing team? I'm basically a 2D graphic artist and designer with my hands in all kinds of aspects of game creation and business, including graphics, marketing, idea generation/refinement and quality. Also, I work well as a part of a team :D

[Carlos Camacho]

>Well, I would like a publisher to be rather independent, yet close at the same time.
Like your women?

About getting shelf-space. Indeed it is hard for the little guy. However, I have seen a ton of budget games and CDs with 10 to 100 shareware games bundled in almost every Japanese PC store I walk into. Most of the games are local, and most likely made in Director. But I seem to recall seeing some non-Japanese games, perhaps even made by people here on a CD or two. Soooooo, what I am trying to say is this. Perhaps it made be hard to package a shareware game and sell it next to Doom III. But package 10 or more good shareware games, at a good price point then you may have a chance. It all depends on the kind of deal you are going to offer the retailer. Since we don't have Apple stores in Japan, and now, not even MacWorld expo, I don't know what they are like. But I think an Apple store "should be" easier to talk to then a CompUSA. Do you have sales rep experience?

Seems like two of you (and iDG) have these things in mind. Have you created a business plan/model? Rather than going it alone, you may want to leverage some of the talent you see here. Like Gatti and DaFalcon. I also recall ChrisD talking about the same thing. (Well, before he got Reason and fell off the earth.)

p.s. Go to our "demographics" thread and find the company I used for creating my survey. Then create a survey to poll feelings on this topic. it might be easier to collect data that way.

Cheers

[Bachus]

About getting shelf-space. Indeed it is hard for the little guy. However, I have seen a ton of budget games and CDs with 10 to 100 shareware games bundled in almost every Japanese PC store I walk into... Perhaps it made be hard to package a shareware game and sell it next to Doom III. But package 10 or more good shareware games, at a good price point then you may have a chance.

There's a set in CompUSA right now (from Aladdin) that has 13 games in it. Cro-Mag Rally, Bugdom, Airburst, Astrosquid, Wingnuts, Burning Monkey Puzzle Lab, etc. Something like that would be fantastic to get into. Hey Zwilnik, how'd you get Airburst in that set?

Hey, how about an official iDevGames box-set to sell in stores? :)

[codemattic]

Originally posted by Bachus
There's a set in CompUSA right now (from Aladdin) that has 13 games in it. Cro-Mag Rally, Bugdom, Airburst, Astrosquid, Wingnuts, Burning Monkey Puzzle Lab, etc. Something like that would be fantastic to get into. Hey Zwilnik, how'd you get Airburst in that set?

Hey, how about an official iDevGames box-set to sell in stores? :)

also, Astrosquid was in uDevGames. Congrats to LostMinds! Loved that game.

[Colin Smith]

Hey Guys,

I hope you don't mind my jumping in here, (feel free to tell me to get lost Carlos) :)

Some Background:
Freeverse started when my brother Ian wrote the first version of Hearts Deluxe back in '94. He was one of those authors who wanted to control the process 100% so he incorporated Freeverse, and applied to take credit cards and develpoed a website, and did tech-support, and burned floppy disks, and designed packaging, aand carried stuff to the post office, etc.... Not surprisingly, it was a long while before he started work on his next game!

I think we see our role as publishers as three fold...

1. Helping to develop the game by providing advice, code, art, music and motivation in whatever quantities may be needed.

2. Marketing the game. In the old days when Ian started this was mostly just uploading to info-mac and the Mac games section of AOL. Now, its much harder especially for certain genres of game. That's why we've gone through the enormous trouble and expense of moving into retail distribution. All of us are, by avocation or occupation, pretty internet savy, but there are a ton of Mac owners who are still on dial-up or who are just not aware of MacGamer.com, VersionTracker, and iDevgames. And I don't know how a casual user would ever stumble across Apple.com/games since its not linked very obviously.

So, we talk to the magazines and the websites, we take booths at MacWorlds and we work with Apple on things like the current .Mac promotion. We also put the games in boxes on shelves where people can see them. (We have six more titles that should be showing up in the Apple Stores and elsewhere this summer). We also work with other Publishers like Aladdin and Aspyr whenever it makes sense for us and our authors.

3. We deal with all of that stuff I talked about Ian doing when he started! Support, printing, fulfillment, etc.

Another big advantage that we and Ambrosia have with our large catalog of games is that we often get spawned sales. When you buy one game on CD-rom from us, you also get demos of the other games. This has been especially succesful for us in our core specialty of traditional card and board games.

Anyway, that's where I see our role. Ultimately it comes down to the fact that we believe we can give a game a higher profile and generate more sales with a lot less work for the author. For many authors, that will more than justify our cut.

Best,

-Colin

[DCoder]

Originally posted by Colin Smith
I hope you don't mind my jumping in here

Gosh, Colin, I'm ecstatic that you've taken the time to reply. It's great to get feedback from somebody at one of the old hats of Mac game publishing!!!


I think we see our role as publishers as three fold...

1. providing advice, code, art, music and motivation
2. Marketing the game
3. deal with ... support, printing, fulfillment, etc.


Great news! I'm glad the things I'm thinking about are on track.

Another big advantage ... is that we often get spawned sales. When you buy one game on CD-rom from us, you also get demos of the other games.

I have a few procedural questions about this...

1. Do you always ship customers a CD-ROM with every purchase? Or is it an "additional fee" option?

2. The CD with all the extra demo goodies... Are the games all "full versions" that are key-locked or are they demos that will require a new binary? I assume that it's economical (and super-helpful) to just ship all the full versions on the CD and then unlock them as they're purchased...


Ultimately it comes down to the fact that we believe we can give a game a higher profile and generate more sales with a lot less work for the author.

Bingo! I'm hoping that I can leverage this concept as well. :D

-daniel

[Zwilnik]

Originally posted by Bachus
There's a set in CompUSA right now (from Aladdin) that has 13 games in it. Cro-Mag Rally, Bugdom, Airburst, Astrosquid, Wingnuts, Burning Monkey Puzzle Lab, etc. Something like that would be fantastic to get into. Hey Zwilnik, how'd you get Airburst in that set?

Hey, how about an official iDevGames box-set to sell in stores? :)

That's one of the advantages of having a publisher. Apart from providing me with a web shop for Airburst and a proper publishing for Airburst Extreme, Freeverse were able to offer Airburst as an option to Aladdin for the 10 for X bundle. Other advantages are the possibilty of shared code and technical knowledge (the Freeverse guys helped a lot with the stuff needed for Airburst Network).

Publishers are great when you get a good one (Adam and I are very happy with Freeverse at the moment) but are a nightmare when you get a bad one (which we've had in the past). Sometimes it can be better to just self publish although publishers are probably the only way to go for major exposure.

[Carlos Camacho]

>I hope you don't mind my jumping in here, (feel free to tell me to get lost Carlos)

Colin,
Now why would I feel that? You are very welcomed to post and be a member of this community. Andrew of Ambrosia was here for a bit but has gone MIA as of late. I'd like to see more of guys like you and Andrew providing some of your wisdom to the masses here. I've always felt that the stronger the links in this community get, the more we help each other, the better products the platform will enjoy, the more attractive our platform becomes. I try to find the win-win in every thing.

One interesting point in your comment which I think devs should think about. You mentioned cross-product tie-ups. For example, someone has a software application CD and inside of that is a little folder called "Cool Fun Stuff", and sure enough some games are inside. So you have the opportunity to get yourself in more desktops. Very clever I think.

I just noticed that we have never interviewed you or Freeverse. We should fix that.
;) When we are both free, lets set something up.

Cheers,

p.s. Thanks for supporting uDevGame 2002.