Miyamoto on game design

[Carlos Camacho]

Shigeru Miyamoto, living legend, was in a park when a lady saw him and noticed who he was. (If you don't know, please click logout in our forum now). She said "What the best game was for her son." He said "Tell him to go and play outside." Interesting eh?

In same article (nice write up on the big N's troubles and on Mr. Miyamoto) he said "behind every door a surprise." That is the key to a great game. I like that concept and see that all the games that I really liked used that principle.

He also says, "Believe it or not, I am not a geek and don't spend all my time indoors. I get my inspiration from going outside and spotting images, sounds and scenes from the real world. I then incorporate them into my games." Sounds like common sense and what everyone does, but do they? I also found it interesting when he mentioned how things that creep into his life that "hook" him, find their way into his games. For example, he (this is weird for a Japanese person) got into American country music. His next game had to have country music.

Anyhow, the main point of this thread is "behind every door a surprise." Does that work for all genres? I think most of his games have been platform inspired, so many "worlds" and objects to explore, etc.

Cheers

[AJ Infinity]

>"behind every door a surprise."
Nearly. I love that in games like Super Metroid and Tomb Raider. It can mean anything from a new enemy who jumps out at you to finding in artifact in the last place you'd expect it to be in.

As for genres, I think this would be good only for adventure games, FPS's, etc.

[Mark Levin]

Originally posted by Camacho

Anyhow, the main point of this thread is "behind every door a surprise." Does that work for all genres? I think most of his games have been platform inspired, so many "worlds" and objects to explore, etc.


Well, it only works for games that involve doors :P

It also wouldn't work too well for games that involve prediction (like stealth games) or repeatability (Diablo?)

[kelvin]

Could work for fighting games too. Not in the same way, but consider: hitting the right combination of buttons in with the right timing will produce a unique and interesting move by your character. Much of modern fighting games (initially anyways) is being creative with what moves you use and in what pattern. Seeing somebody kick your butt with a combo you don't know how to do (let alone have never seen before) can very well be a surprise, especially if it triggered some kind of animation unique to that combo.

Strategy games too, your actions may result in something unexpected by enemy AI or world interactions.

[David]

I think to generalise it a bit, you have to constantly give the player new things, or promise to, throughout the game.

Many new games don't realise this; like the matrix game where you start out with all the moves. Prince of Persia did this in a very minor way which worked pretty well, with the uber-potions that give you an extra life point :)

My favorite is the Soul Calibur (and a lot of other games) method, where you can unlock things as you go along.

The one that requires least effort on the programmer's part is the Diablo method, where you just generate millions of random items so people play for years to get the super plate armor +4012 of the smelly rhino or whatever.

How I want to handle this in Lugaru is let you unlock new fighting styles and moves as you advance; not in the oni sense where you get a new move where you press an obscure combination to activate, but where you can just switch your whole style and get a new idle stance, jump attack, sweep, etc. and new move categories like counter-counter-counters and such :)

[erazorhead]

Originally posted by AJ Infinity
>"behind every door a surprise." .....
As for genres, I think this would be good only for adventure games, FPS's, etc.

i don't think this phrase is meant to be taken literally. it is a better way of saying that not only should a game keep surprising the player, but that the excited anticipation of the next "door" and the surprises it holds is what makes games really fun.

[Carlos Camacho]

Yes, I know that...

David sumed it up nicely with...

"you have to constantly give the player new things, or promise to, throughout the game."

So once the player feels they have come to the end of the line for surprises, that is when they give up/move on?

"but where you can just switch your whole style".... whoa... I know Kung-Fu... more!

[David]

OT I was having a bit too much fun experimenting with cafepress.com and made http://prodtn.cafepress.com/2/6230412_F_tn.jpg

Anyways yeah once people think they won't see anything more, they tend to stop playing.

[Shivers]

It is actually a lot like cinematagraphy and video editing, which, is my primary hobby just ahead of game dev. In a film, each shot needs to reveal something new or the scene will get boring and repetitive, i definetly think that having the player unlock cool features as the game goes on is the way to go. no matter what genre the game is, this method could work, though in some genre's it is more necessary than others. Puzzle games do not *need* this, but it could add quite a twist, but all of genres that I can think really do need something to unlock in order to keep the player playing.

[AJ Infinity]

You should become a game designer at Blizzard when you get older and design at least one released title (check their job opps page). You look like a very good candidate.

[Shivers]

moi? *blushes*
is that what this face is for? :blush:

I dunno, I want to go into politics and cinematagraphy already, being a professional game developer might overdo it:P

[Chris Burkhardt]

It's true with almost everything really. When I get bored, I go do something else. As obvious as that is, there is a surprisingly large number of boring games/movies/books out there :p

[Feanor]

Originally posted by Mark Levin
Well, it only works for games that involve doors :P
There are many kinds of doors.

Surprise is fine for games that do not involve improving dexterity (of hands or neurons). If you surprise me in Quake 3, I might not like it. Depends if it affects everyone fairly, in a multiplayer game. Funny thing, the other day on a server, the admin thought he'd have some fun by turning off gravity and then changing the force of bullets. Did you know that this was all configurable? You can even use negative values.

He did this right before the end of the match when it was even. It was a long overtime!

Ah, back on topic, for most games where exploration is a big part, surprise is utterly necessary to keep me interested. Let's just say I think I might regret buying Dungeon Siege. That game is the same half an hour repeated over and over with different make-up on. I might be looking to sell it at a discount.

[AJ Infinity]

Dungeon Siege wasn't that bad. Anyone remember Super Metroid (heck, who doesn't?). Since that game had so may "Behind every door, there is a suprise"s, it's considered the best game on the SNES.

[Mark Levin]

After thinking about this thread for a while, I found that the best thing to put behind every door is something that seems familiar but has an unexpected twist.

[Bachus]

Originally posted by Mark Levin
After thinking about this thread for a while, I found that the best thing to put behind every door is something that seems familiar but has an unexpected twist.

The Resident Evil remake did a good job of that. Many gamers (even ones who never played RE) knew of the dogs that jumped through windows in the original RE. The remake changed the formula. The first time you walked through the hallway all you heard was a cracking sound. The next few times you walked through you heard nothing. Then finally the dogs jumped through.

The best way to surprise the player is to make them expect something, and then not give it to them until just a little bit later.

[death_himself]

Does Animal Crossing count as one of these games? I don't know I've never played it...but, when you think about it, its all about getting suprised and excited...whether it be the first time it snows or hearing rumors of a big nintendo retro game in the game or getting one corner of a boxing ring and trying to get the other corners (another element seems to be giving the player a sneak preview of whats to come)...I think thats what makes it so good. Sorry, I've forgotten the original question...and thus, made a very pointless post.

[Joseph Duchesne]

Metroid isn't the best :D it's third after Chrono Trigger and Sparkster :p

[death_himself]

Gagh, what happened to my post? I asked who deleted it, then I saw my post and Joseph's, so i deleted my post asking who deleted my previous post...and now I can't see my original post and Joseph's. Am I going bonkers?

edit: gagj, whats going on? Now I can see my post again...I think I'lll just leave this here this time...

[GoodDoug]

One of my favorite Console game series, Spyro the Dragon, had a great formula for that.

Each world has a general look and feel, and each subworld expanded on that look and feel to give a fairly rich experience. Each time you went through a portal to a subworld, you sorta knew what to expect, but were looking closely for the surprises ("What's unique about this subworld?")

Another technique they used well was in giving the player a broad overall view at the beginning of the subworld. This gave players a feel for what was going on, as well, when you saw something new in the distance, you asked yourself two questions: "How do I get there?" and "What does that thing do?" So that most of the surprises were of the sort "Oh, how clever" rather than the something jumping out at you kind of surprise.

Then, when you moved to a new world, it had a completely different look and feel than the previous. So that if the gameplay was similar (jump from platform to platform without falling off) the feel was very different (falling off into toxic sludge and getting slimed vs falling off into space and falling forever)

As well, don't underestimate the value of changes in feel to simulate plot twists. A good example of this is in Diablo II. Each chapter is a variation on "Ooooh, you just missed him, better go chase after him" but each time it feels different, and so you don't get bored too quickly.

It can be the same way with movies and books... by changing the feel around a basic plot, you can come up with a totally different story (J.K Rowling has done it to me five times, and I can't wait for the sixth book to come out)

So, in summary: surprise doens't mean somehting is jumping out at you. Surprise can be had with just a small but significant change in the feel of an already familiar subject. And, in the end, is the surprise enjoyable for the gamer? or is it annoying "Gahhh! I just figured out that the zombies come out of the barrels, and I just got killed by one coming out of the ceiling!" is cool once or twice in a game, but becomes annoying when it happens all of the time.

[AJ Infinity]

Originally posted by Joseph Duchesne
Metroid isn't the best :D it's third after Chrono Trigger and Sparkster :p

Yes Super Metroid is. It whoops CT's lil ass in terms of the fun, puzzles, and exploration. CT's alot longer and has more replayability, but I still find Super Metroid to be more fun. Heck, Super Mario RPG's better the CT. :p

Back on topic:
GD: What you said is good, man!

[igame3d]

Originally posted by Shivers
I dunno, I want to go into politics and cinematagraphy already, being a professional game developer might overdo it:P

Is it the water? You can do all, I've done the DV thing, until the economy went flush. I plan on releasing some political propaganda screen savers using our game engine towards the great hyped November vote.

One "surprise" behind the door that should not be done is the Resident Evil style: Walk through a door and your entire controller direction changes. This is an endless frustration with that game. The player should not have to reorient himself every 30 seconds.

I have to say Lugaru is surprising already. Just the button smashing fight for survival turns up unpredicatable ..should I say physics? the things that happen to you or your enemy are like "Whoa!". Giddee sub-psychotic primordial glee ensues.

Was it macboy that mentioned Tomb Raider?
I think that game was so fantastic because every step was "I wonder whats next, give me more more more"
I'd have just as soon just watched the entire series as a spectator. Eventually though it becomes "Enough with these damn jumps of death! Ack! Not Another trap, I just want to see Venice damnit. ". My daughter and I were playing the other day, still a wicked game. If anyone has Chronicles I have fairly wicked level I'd like to see finished. I ran out of steam..being commercial game and all.

Returning to Mr. Miyamoto's response to the young mother. Are you sure he didn't say "Play in traffic" ala Frogger? hehe.

I wonder if somewhere there's a write up on "what and when to throw out elements of game design". Controlling the design of game, restricting the desire to do it all is as important as what you put in sometimes.

Has anyone tried the Billy Frontier game from Panagea.
Looks awesome but that Parrappa the Rappa follow the directions of the arrows thing totaly lost me. I wish there was a demo of the other play elements, as it stands the demo just screams "don't buy me". My daughter and I were totaly mezmerized by the open music and the beginning of the show down, and then...bleh.
What was Brian thinking? I guess it was the only way to figure out a quick draw shoot out other than 1 2 3 fight!
I can't think of another technique that would be playable at the moment.

[OneSadCookie]

You don't have to be particularly fast with the pressing the keys, but I agree the rest of the demo should be accessible without getting past that bit.

The staged shootout afterwards is pretty cool, also fairly easy once you know how...

I don't know why he didn't demo stampede or target practice as well, though. I'm not one to buy a game when I've only tried half the modes, and only one level in each mode...

[igame3d]

WA!? you can do more than that shootout? I got killed so I guess if I get passed that I can see more? I had my two year old on my lap, and once Billy died, well we sure weren't going to try that again. Guess I'll have give it another go.

I wonder how Mr. Miyamoto would handle an Old West game.

I think if I did one it would have to be story driven, probably like Resident Evil, somekind a crisis like "The train is going to be robbed, they're going to blow up the bridge!" and "the bandito's have Ranch XO surrounded and outgunned", "track down the PigKillin' Posse".

Of course with no Quake Body armor, you have to use stealth and cunning. Open range would make that tough.

I bet an old west meets ghost story game would be a real bone chiller.

[ERaZer]

Originally posted by igame3d
I bet an old west meets ghost story game would be a real bone chiller.
Alone in the Dark 3 (I think its the third anyway).

[joephish]

Excellent thread!

I'm making an NS-Shaft type of game (for those who haven't played it, suffice to say a very simple platformer). I didn't want to make it too ambitious (those games never get finished!) but i wanted to add a certain twist, or expand upon the original NS-Shaft in some way.

One of the main things I am doing is having perhaps 10 different worlds. These are consecutively unlocked once you get past a certain distance on the previous world. The only difference between the worlds however is a complete background/environment makeover, and a slight difficulty increase.

My question is - is this enough to keep the player interested? Is the graphical change/difficulty increase enough of a surprise behind the door? I hope so.

[aaronsullivan]

Miyamoto San really put this into practice for the first time in Super Mario Bros.

The players discovered the game like so. Hmm, I have no gun to kill that mushroom thingy. I'll jump on top of these bricks to avoid it. Whoops I fell on him. Oh, that kills him! Oh no I can't jump on top of the goomba I'm right under some bricks. Woah, I hit the brick and it exploded...

Eventually, you discover [?] blocks, then you discover that some bricks have hidden coins in them. Also, there are some bricks you can walk right through, secret warps, etc, etc.

The real magic in his games come from passing by an object over and over, thinking you understand the rules about it. (That flying turtle must be avoided or I'll die.) Suddenly, you are stuck. (This gap is way too large!) So, you must discover something new about an object. (If I jump on that flying turtle when floats to the right spot, I can bounce off his back and make it over the gap!)

That's why Mario, Zelda, and Metroid (Gunpei Yokoi ) are so much fun. The only problem is that when you make sequels to those games, you have to keep coming up with fresh ways to surprise people. With so many games, it becomes a difficult problem. That's why I think the recent sequels to Zelda and especially Mario have been a little disappointing.