free 3D software

[snickrep]

I know it is illegal to download software for free with programs like LimeWire and kaZaA. But my friend said it was ok to download older programs and he downloaded Maya 3.5. I guess it makes since to download older software since it doesn't retail at stores anymore. I was thinking about downloading Lightwave 6.5. Do you think this will be ok or should I just purchase the academic version of Lightwave 7.

[skyhawk]

...

[snickrep]

?

[NCarter]

No, the publishers still retain their rights over previous versions of their software unless they explicitly relinquish them. Even if an old version of a program was released on a magazine's cover CD (for example), that still doesn't give you the right to copy the same version from somewhere else. Generally you are always obliged to pay for commercial software one way or another.

I do recommend you get an academic license for Lightwave. By paying for the software you can legitimately contact the publishers for help, and you'll be able to upgrade it to fix bugs (which is usually not the case with pirate software). You might also be able to upgrade to a full commercial license at a reduced cost when you become rich and famous!

[death_himself]

To me pirating was the only way to start to learn to program. I really didn't have many other options other than scripting languages. And what kind of idiot pays hundreds for codewarrior or whatever when they don't even know if they'll be able to use it? Ie. If programming is really for them. The same goes for graphics and so forth.

Sorry, off-topic?

[NCarter]

Originally posted by death_himself
And what kind of idiot pays hundreds for codewarrior or whatever when they don't even know if they'll be able to use it? Ie. If programming is really for them. The same goes for graphics and so forth.

Can't afford CodeWarrior? Try Project Builder or MPW. Or Metal Basic.

I understand what you're saying, though. I often have this kind of discussion with my students. In some cases certain individuals need to pirate software (usually 3D Studio) in order to begin learning it, but in many cases they could just as easily buy a student license or choose a cheaper program. I advise them that if they insist on using pirated software that they should (a) not pay for the pirate copy, and (b) should buy a legal license as soon as they possibly can after starting a real job. It doesn't make it any more legal but I hope that it encourages them to think about the moral issues involved.

[death_himself]

Well, I had done metal basic, but I really needed to learn 'proper' programming, I mean, system calls and all of that, metal is proper, its just that its BASIC, BASIC isn't meant to include those sorts of things...if I'm making any sense. No way am I paying for pirated software. If I were going to make a commercial product, I would definaterly buy codewarrior (or a mac with OSX)...I don't have the money for a student license.

Sorry, going really off-topic now.

[Jake]

Well i'm surprised that people can trick themselves into saying pirating is ok... i'm also surprised it doesnt bother me when I do it sometimes:mad:

Try buying Meshworks, that what I use

[death_himself]

I hadn't convinced myself that pirating was okay :) . I'd pay for say, anything I liked by spiderwebsoftware, were thinking of buying geneforge in fact, but need underpants, but definately not anything from Ambrosia, I REALLY don't like Ambrosia.

Now, obviously I'm not saying its okay to steal from people/companies you don't like, but it sure makes it alot more satisfying :D .

Sorry, pointless post, I need to find something to do.

[Jake]

But my friend said it was ok to download older programs

That is what i'm refering too, its definitly the same downloading old stuff and new stuff, because if you download an older version of a software, there goes a potential sale of the new software.

[M.J.]

As the vast majority of the members on this board are (aspiring) creators of software (be they programmers, artists, or composers), I would think that we would have little tolerance for pirates of any kind. How would you like it if you worked long and hard to create some piece of software and someone used a pirated version. If you had the opportunity to confront them and they said "I can't afford it, but I wanted it, so it's OK to steal it." Would you think it was OK?

Help, M.J. is stuck on his moral high-horse.... :)

Jake says...
Well i'm surprised that people can trick themselves into saying pirating is ok... i'm also surprised it doesnt bother me when I do it sometimes

I couldn't have said it better, I too opose piracy in all forms and yet am guilty of it myself. Morally, the choice is up to each individual. Legally, stealing is stealing and stealing is wrong, but they have to catch you first :ninja:

To resond to the OP, some companies do relax the license on old versions of some products and allow for free use, but this is far from universal. You would have to check each vendor and and each product individually to be sure. If Lightwave is currently on version 7, I very much doubt that version 6.5 is free. The times I've seen old versions for free it has been really old versions (two or three major version numbers behind the current version).

[death_himself]

Well, personally if I created something, spent months working on it, I couldn't give a damn, I'd just be glad if people liked it enough to pirate it, I don't like money, but I would love to see people using what I made, especially if it was an online game, it'd mean more people to play against, yay! But I fully understand that alot of people wouldn't feel like that, and don't disagree with their reasoning. I'm perfectly happy to pay for games, they're alot cheaper and seem to have more of a soul to them, as opposed to say, codewarrior. Buying them also makes me feel I'm helping in a teeney way (under 0.01%) to allow people to make more and better games.

The thing is, is it really wrong to pirate something, that not only you cannot afford but cannot get an equivalent at a good price either? Am I actually, technically stealing if I'm not stealing a sale from say, metrowerks, because I couldn't buy it even if I chose not to pirate. Well, yes, it still is stealing, I'm taking something that's not mine, but I really don't see it as that bad.

[skyhawk]

Originally posted by M.J.
As the vast majority of the members on this board are (aspiring) creators of software (be they programmers, artists, or composers), I would think that we would have little tolerance for pirates of any kind. How would you like it if you worked long and hard to create some piece of software and someone used a pirated version. If you had the opportunity to confront them and they said "I can't afford it, but I wanted it, so it's OK to steal it." Would you think it was OK?

To know that someone thinks MY program would be good enough to pirate.... hell, I'd be flattered.... but yeah... quick money lesson for people to understand piracy.

IF the person has money, it is cheaper to buy the product. Less hassle, less time, support of the author. They obviously have money because they spend their time working and such. If they are working, they don't have time to hassle with finding serial #s or cracks.
IF the person does not have the money, it is cheaper to pirate. Because their time is obviously not worth a lot of money, therefore they can spend that time with the hassle of pirating.

[skyhawk]

Originally posted by death_himself
Am I actually, technically stealing if I'm not stealing a sale from say, metrowerks, because I couldn't buy it even if I chose not to pirate.

yes

[Mazilurik]

Originally posted by death_himself
The thing is, is it really wrong to pirate something, that not only you cannot afford but cannot get an equivalent at a good price either?

Well, yes; you're still taking someone else's work without paying for it. If you want something and can't afford it, then get a job or save up money to buy it. If you don't want it enough to do that, then you'll just have to do without.

[igame3d]

Originally posted by M.J.
If you had the opportunity to confront them and they said "I can't afford it, but I wanted it, so it's OK to steal it." Would you think it was OK?


Hehe, what an opportunity that would present.
To actually kick, punch and rob them, and say "well I really didn't want to, but I couldn't afford to pay for a punching bag, because you didn't pay for my software, but hey, with this nifty credit card of yours I can pay for all the things I need and give my software away free. Thanks buddy!"

No its not ok to download old software.
Except maybe abandonware, software that isn't supported, sold, or otherwise available in any other form. Even that I think will eventually lead to 10 -20 years in jail if US lawmakers, hollywood and the music industry have their way.

Technically, and you should read the licenses, when you purchase a license to software, you do not OWN anything.
You merely pay for the priveledge to use it.

Also, if you read the license agreement when signing on to this site I'm pretty sure its says something about not discussing illegal activities, ie, where and how to download pirated software, where to get a fat bag of drugs, or links to your kiddie porn site.

So snickrep, since you have been in hot water over this "stealing issue" several times I suggest you use google to discover what the laws are before you get boiled here again for your reckless & lawless, "excuse me for being a theif" threads.

Rule number one of the theives guild: "Sssssh"

[GoodDoug]

Originally posted by death_himself
... I don't like money...

Send your excess to me, please. I could use it, and I find it quite enjoyable.

[igame3d]

Too late GoodDoug, he has it earmarked for new underwear. Go figure. I'll take money over underwear anyday.

[skyhawk]

Originally posted by igame3d
Too late GoodDoug, he has it earmarked for new underwear. Go figure. I'll take money over underwear anyday.
I'm kind of against going commando... there is the whole zipper dilimma

[Mazilurik]

Well, he said he needed new underwear, which would seem to imply that he has at least one pair; besides, if he had to I'm sure he could improvise with a few sheets of paper and a roll of tape (staples would probably be a bad idea).

[igame3d]

Laptop access to the package installer is worth the security risks

Oh instead of stealing software.
Why don't you just download iGame3D and use that?
It's free after all.

Well, I will collect your soul at the appropriate time, but since you're already guilty of piracy...better to be a assimilated into my application that burn for eternity.

Dontcha think?

[NCarter]

Originally posted by igame3d
Laptop access to the package installer is worth the security risks

Er, what? :blink: Are you talking about piracy or pants? :p

Oh instead of stealing software...

To be fair, I think snickrep was trying to figure out a legitimate way of getting hold of software. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have bothered asking the question.

[M.J.]

Well I lost the big long post I was writing and I'm too lazy to write it again, which is a shame because it was full of wit and humor and metaphore and made a very convincing argument against stealing software and didn't have run-on sentences like this one. But since everyone is basically agreeing with me anyway and the thread has now disintegrated into a discussion of homemade underwear (staples, OUCH! :ohmy:) it's probably not worth reconstructing. Trust me though, it was good. It compared software to cars... did I mention the wit and humor?... I guess you had to be there...

I will repeat my conclusion, however. A better way to approach the OP's situation would have been to post something like: "I need to do Task X. I know Program Y is famous for doing Task X really well and that's what all the pros use, but my financial situation does not allow me to purchase Program Y. Does any one know of any free, cheap, or at least affordable alternatives that would allow me to accomplish Task X?"

[death_himself]

Well...surely the whole zippa dillema is a good reason to go commando...it'll make going through crowds alot easier :).

I have underwear, but I need new ones, all of me is growing, I need bigger ones. Good God...thats gonnah make some people puke :).

[Damian]

Originally posted by death_himself
I don't have the money for a student license.

How come you have the money for an expensive computer (Mac) but not for an education copy of the software you run on it?

And I am appalled that people claim that students "need" to pirate software. Education is expensive. How can you find the money for thousands in fees (plus a computer), but not a hundred bucks or less for the software. Besides, at the universities I've experienced, if a subject requires a particular application they provide it on their machine in their labs for students to use.

[Damian]

Originally posted by death_himself
The thing is, is it really wrong to pirate something, that not only you cannot afford but cannot get an equivalent at a good price either?

Only someone incapable of producing intellectual property can justify ablating intellectual property rights.

Would you steal hardware?

[death_himself]

Damian, I'm not a student, I don't pay fees, I thought a student license was for anyone interested in learning some software and allowed them to do so as long as they didn't produce anything with it (ie. learning c++ with codewarrior)...I've just realised that I'm probably completely wrong.

I didn't buy this mac, my parents did, years ago :) . I had the money for my £200 PC because I saved up long and hard for it and did not give into temptation by buying myself new underwear and other clothes. A student license would take me a year to save up for...if the government carried on giving me money, which they're not going to because I'm not going on to further education...which is why I'm trying to get a job, but I don't know how succesfull I'll be, because, well, I'm not the sort of person people like to employ.

I weren't justifying, I were wondering whether metrowerks had lost a possible sale by me pirating their software :) ...which they might have,m because I could carry on using codewarrior 7.0, well, forever, instead of upgrading, so not only did they not get money from me buying it in the first place, but they might not get any money from me buying newer versions...though this is all hypothetical, because I doubt they're going to continue development of codewarrior.

[NCarter]

Originally posted by Damian
And I am appalled that people claim that students "need" to pirate software. Education is expensive. How can you find the money for thousands in fees (plus a computer), but not a hundred bucks or less for the software. Besides, at the universities I've experienced, if a subject requires a particular application they provide it on their machine in their labs for students to use.

All of this is true. Actually, after spending several minutes trying to put together a sensible argument to counter you, I've decided to retract my remark about students needing to pirate software. You're right. For the reasons you mention, they don't have a leg to stand on!

Hmm... almost everyone is taking the moral high ground in this discussion, but I find it difficult to believe that there is anyone here who has never used pirate software? Are we being hypocritical?

Originally posted by death_himself
this is all hypothetical, because I doubt they're going to continue development of codewarrior.

Do you mean you think they're going to discontinue CodeWarrior because of Apple's free developer tools?

[Tycho]

Can't you download MPW for free? There ARE free alternatives.

[death_himself]

Yes, I do think they're going to discontinue developing codewarrior...though, I don't think apple is really pushing developers off it's platform...afterall, by including a free compiler surely you are increasing and encouraging the amount of developers on your platform? Perhaps apple thought that it might entice non-programmers into programming (people of about my age, possibly?) and perhaps a little way into the future these people might be dedicated to the mac platform after starting out their development with it?

Anyway, thats a different matter entirely.

MPW...I were under the impression it was hard to use and you had to know how to program to use it (what I mean is, you couldn't learn to program on it, because according to some people a newbie wouldn't even be able to compile on it, I believed them and gave it a miss...I don't know much about it though).

But, point is, I don't pretend to myself that me pirating is right, but its not exactly the heaviest thing on my consciounce (spelling, I know) right now. I'd like to say that I don't give a damn, but thats not entirely true.

So am I the only one who admits to pirating on here?

[Patrick]

CodeWarrior Pro for Mac isn't being discontinued... Metrowerks will be coming out with CW Pro 9 and PowerPlant X this fall.

MPW is not impossible to use...lots of people have learned C/C++ using a UNIX command line interface, and MPW is a lot easier than vi and [g]cc! ( for instance many shell commands have a GUI interface, including stuff for creating your makefiles etc. )
Or you could use MacPython, MacPerl, THINK Pascal, Leonardo C, etc all of which are good and free programming languages. ( THINK Pascal especially so, as Pascal/Mac Toolbox skils can translate to C/C++ and carbon quite easily. )
:mad:
/soapbox OFF
anyway, back on topic. If you can't afford new copies of expensive 3D software, check out MacMegaPov (http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh/), which is a free, open-source raytracer.

[isogonic]

> So am I the only one who admits to pirating on here?

Yes...

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:

Pirate \Pi"rate\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. {Pirated}; p. pr. & vb. n.
{Pirating}.] [Cf. F. pirater.]
To play the pirate; to practice robbery on the high seas. :D

With the exception of Sid Myer's Pirates!, which I probably did not purchase (sorry Sid).

There is nothing inherently wrong with making copies of software, however if you are breaking the End User License Agreement you are in effect breaking your word. That is one of the worst things you can do. You also deprive the copyright holder of any funds you might otherwise have given them had you not made an unauthorized copy, and in doing so make the Mac market just a tad bit smaller.

My new philosphy is that if they [given company] cannot support me via prices I can afford. I will not support them, and as such will seek an alternative to their software solution rather than snarfing their creation.

[igame3d]

Originally posted by isogonic
You also deprive the copyright holder of any funds you might otherwise have given them had you not made an unauthorized copy, and in doing so make the Mac market just a tad bit smaller.

My new philosphy is that if they [given company] cannot support me via prices I can afford. I will not support them, and as such will seek an alternative to their software solution rather than snarfing their creation.

Well considering the Windows market is 9x% of the market, and easily 80% of Windows software of every kind is pirated, and their market never ever shrinks... I don't think the shrinking market idea is true. 3D Studio Max is everywhere..yet they stay in business. Microsoft Office and Windows OS itself is pirated all over the place, PC people make me ill with their "oh I pirated it" as if they have a right to do so..its really the attitude they express.

I agree with finding alternatives, since losing my job I totaly glaze over all commercial and shareware apps, and go right for the freeware. A lot of stuff to play with.
Makes me sad that I paid for commerical and shareware that i do not use at all...damn.

As for admitting to piracy, you are damned fool to admit to a crime. The US government, music industry, and hollywood are working on laws to stick you in jail for 10 to 20 years for an . mp3 file. It inspires me to make a first person shooter "10 to 20: Justified Homicide"...if you're gonna go to prison for your ipod, you may as well EARN the punishment with a "real" crime, in a virtual world of course.

[isogonic]

As for admitting to piracy, you are damned fool to admit to a crime.

:ohmy: I am not certain as to the intended tone of your post, but I did not care for it. Nor I do not appreciate your phraseology "damn fool", nor do I possess a single illicit copy of any digital media. As to your reference to jail time, I would protest that I did not claim to have made any illegal copies of any software, only that I did not do anything to support the development of a game that I enjoyed greatly.

You also deprive the copyright holder of any funds you might otherwise have given them had you not made an unauthorized copy...

This does not shrink the market share of the computer, but that of the developer.

(streaming content and Audible work fine for me as far as audio is concerned)

[death_himself]

I actually did try python, but it all came to a halt when things I needed to import (for creating windows and stuff) apparently couldn't be found...even if I copied someone else's code...I must have been doing something wrong, but no-one helped me. Pascal, I actually played around with that years ago, I haven't got a clue why not many people use it anymore, but it becomes a problem if you're trying to learn, as I tried to do so, there are so few resources for programming in Python, even less for programming in Python on the macintosh platform, and absolutely none for programming in python for people who have never programmed before...which is the whole point, why can't metrowekrs provide a 'lite' version of codewarrior which doesn't take long to download, is a fully functional compiler for C/C++/Java...but won't allow you to build a double-clickable...I certainly would have gone straight for that. This is off-topic but why exactly DID Python die?

But the biggest reason why I decided to pirate instead of going for free alternatives was because the product was so much better! Why the hell would I go for a free product which didn't suit me as well as another product which also wouldn't cost me a dime?

10 to 20 years in jail...and how the hell are they going to put all these 'pirates' down for that when there are millions and millions of them? It's plausable for them to do alot of people with america because of the lack of a proper justice system, they could do some sort of mass-production senteancing thing...but then alot more money would be spent on putting these people behind bars than the software and music industry lost. I don't need to explain why its not going to happen, there are so many other reasons too.

The best way to stop 'pirates' is to make your software un-pirateable...I'm not talking about this stupid idea of putting 'water-marks' on your cds...I mean, who came up with that? Seriously...but instead using serial numbers for your software, make em complex enough and people will just give up. Hey, its working for Ambrosiasw...I tried to find a serial for uplink the other day, just found posts in forums with no responses.

Sorry, going off-topic...pointless post, yet again, by me :) .

[igame3d]

Originally posted by isogonic
:ohmy: I am not certain as to the intended tone of your post, but I did not care for it. Nor I do not appreciate your phraseology "damn fool",


That is a general kind of "you are not a certified genius", if you put "I, my name here, am a criminal, admitting guilt, of crime X," in print for the world to see.

Jeez people take the most general contents of text on the internet as personal as a shotgun blast through their front door. Why do "they" insert themselves into every reference of the word "you" no matter who "you" might be.

I'm sure all the felons prison mates would say "you damned fool" when the answer to question "What are you in for?" was replied with "I admitted to guilt of a crime on an internet forum, and the G man got me". But all sadness would me squeezed away with sweet prison love.

[diordna]

I didn't know Python was dead :blink:

Python won't do interfaces in the Mac version because they haven't ported the standard windowing toolkit to it. Instead, you can get wxWindows, which I've never tried, but saw on the internet. That should work.

I would be appalled if a programmer were to pirate. After all, you know what it takes to write a program. If you don't want people to pirate your software, then don't pirate their software.

[isogonic]

igames3d,

You are right about your statements regarding the word you.

I would like to clarify that,
So am I the only one who admits to pirating on here? was not my statement but in fact a quote taken from earlier remarks made in this discussion.

Yes... was my statement

I could perhaps be referred to as a foo -:-|| (ala Mr. T) for not putting it inside proper quotation tags. :)

[isogonic]

x2 post, sorry

Python dead? I could be wrong, but I don't think it is after checking out the site.

[igame3d]

On Topic, There is FREE 3D Software. Support it.
Check the Announcement thread, get Coalesce.
Support the app that will one day, crush Maya!. :)
I hope. While it is still Free.

Way Off topic:

Originally posted by death_himself
10 to 20 years in jail...and how the hell are they going to put all these 'pirates' down for that when there are millions and millions of them? It's plausable for them to do alot of people with america because of the lack of a proper justice system, they could do some sort of mass-production senteancing thing...but then alot more money would be spent on putting these people behind bars than the software and music industry lost.

First the prison system in the US is one of biggest business for the eviilest people in the world. World's largets prison population. Second They not only imprison but they extort money from the "criminal" in essence making the person, and his family pay for the entire sentence. Third, they like to pull the old "bribe me please" scam:
"Son you face 15 years in prison, or $15,000...which will it be."
"Wha!?! I'll pay, i'll pay!",
"Well I hope that teaches you not share Britney Spears songs ever again"
"I won't I won't!"

This technique has been used since people burned "witches.", for a share of their land and gold.
Originally posted by death_himself
[B]I don't need to explain why its not going to happen, there are so many other reasons too..

Never underestimate the power of facism. I'm sure the folks in Europe, Russia, and especially the innocent farmers of Cambodia said "never will happen" too. All all those lives were loset beginning with some laws based on protecting the interests of a select group of people.

I stand by the music file sharing, even though I'm not a big fan of music anymore. I'm rather ticked off about the wasted funds on 8-tracks, vynil, cassettes, and CD's that I could never get return on investment for. The music industry through MTV and radio preyed on some immature social pyschology of billions of youth: "You love this music, you must listen to this music, its the sound of YOUR generation, you feel what this moron musician feels, buy it now, join the record club for just one penny!" etc etc.

Yet whats to show for it? Miles of tape all chewed up in cheap electronics, old warped albums, and just luckily...I backed a few things up to MP3.

When I was a kid we traded albums and tapes.
Is there a difference? Should we have faced 10 to 20?
I'm sure Depech Mode, the Cure and The Smiths would have kicked my butt if they found out! I used to give away tapes that I made of my friends the Wretched Ones, sometimes I made a little money on it as a sale, and my buddy punk rock magically turned it into beer!
Lets see Mettallica or Tommy Lee do that!

In response to the "watermarked cd's"..that is to protect the software vendor (MS) from the WHOLESALE pirating for direct profit of their goods. An entire sales company, wharehouse and shipping company was shut down in Louisiana some years ago, millions of copies of Windows 98 and NT were boxed up and shipped out, millions more orders were waiting for shipment. All bogus copies.
No way to tell the fake unless the water mark gizmo was not perfect. When you are the biggest of the big, people will rip you off, BIG TIME.

[Carlos Camacho]

I know it is illegal to download software for free with programs like LimeWire and kaZaA. But my friend said it was ok to download older programs and he downloaded Maya 3.5. I guess it makes since to download older software since it doesn't retail at stores anymore. I was thinking about downloading Lightwave 6.5. Do you think this will be ok or should I just purchase the academic version of Lightwave 7.
Ok, this will be the last post in this thread. This message board is for Art & Audio talk. The posts as well as the original posts don't belong here.

To answer your question. Your friend is wrong. I suggest you turn him in to some software group and see if you can get some type of reward. The money you get could be used to buy your own software. :) Kidding aside, people here know I don't let any talk of pirating or related subjects in the forum. It is a subject that will most likey lead to the first banned user of this forum.

It does not make sense to download older software as usually it has bugs, may install old components (of software or OS, etc etc) not to mention, it is STILL illegal, and on top of all of this, IMHO, has a developer, you shouldn't be part of this group that feels pirating is OK.

So, I suggest you don't download a pirated version of Lightwave, and that from here on out, you never speak of it again.

I DO recommend you find an application that is within your budget, and then buy it. (In many cases, good open-source 3D apps exist!) This message board is full of advice on the matter if you search. Also, you should consider getting academic versions if you are a student. If you want Maya, use the PE version. That will train you. You should also go to the library or Amazon and look for books on your 3D app of choice. Of course, the Net has tons of tutorials as well. (The 3D toolkit has app, Electric Image and video tutorials.)

Here is my rant: I think many teens (I'll say teens, but I know it isn't limited to them) think, "Oh, I can get tht $2,000 app for free on the Net. Because it cost so much, I'll be making AAA title level art in no time." For the most part, they are wrong. I'm sure some people can figure things out on their own, but overall, buying the app, getting the manuals, the support, info from the community of the app WILL lead to mastery of the app in the long run. I also want to say this. When you learn a 3D app, it takes a lot of time to be a master. In a way, you invest much of your time. If people force the developer into bankruptcy, then the app goes under, you just lost a lot of your time. Learning a new 3D app from step 0 is much work IMHO. So, support yourself and the dev. and buy the app.

OK. End of this discussion. If you want to continue talk from this thread, that doesn't concern pirating, then do so in Free Talk. If it concerns 3D apps, then make a new thread.

Cheers,