Software Promoters?

[ichiboo]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if any of you guys know of any software promoters, or people who can advertise a software product, other than AmbrosiaSW. I love Ambrosia and all, but seeing as how they have treated all the developers who have worked for them, I'd really rather not go that route. Anyone have any ideas? :confused:

[Carlos Camacho]

Try Freeverse Software and Plaid Software. (Do a search in Google)
Good luck.

[Al_Staffieri]

You can also try Spiderweb Software
http://www.spidweb.com/misc/services.html

[Carlos Camacho]

I meant to say PlaidWorld Software. (Sorry Chris!)

>seeing as how they have treated all the developers who have worked for them...

Whacha mean? :D

[ichiboo]

What I mean is, anyhting that is put out under Ambrosia's name, Ambrosia takes full credit, even if they don't lay a finger on it... And I personally want my team to be given full credit for having designed the game that we are trying to create. I understand that some credit will be taken, whomever I choose... however, some are less arrogant about that sort of thing. Anyway, that is what I meant :D

[aarku]

Thought I'd mention Ground Zero Software (http://www.groundzerosw.com/) as well.

-Jon

[Carlos Camacho]

So it seems there are several routes. We need somneone to creata an article on all these publishers and interview the CEOs, then make a grid of what they do and what they don't do. Along with difference in what they offer in terms of $$$ for the lone-wolf.

Anyone?

[inio]

Originally posted by Camacho
Along with difference in what they offer in terms of $$$ for the lone-wolf.

If you can get hard numbers out of anyone I'd be amazed. What would be better is just a list of contacts. That way developers can "shop around" and see which publisher would best fit their project.

[Ice Cream Joe]

Perhaps the type of game you are making would have some influence on the publisher you go with. Ambrosia has a solid reputation with arcade style games. Spiderweb has a solid reputation in roleplaying games. Freeverse has a reputation with arcade/strategy games. No matter how Cythera sold, I don't doubt that it would have done even better had Spiderweb's name been attached to it instead of Ambrosia. On the flipside, I will usually download any fast action game from Ambrosia without thinking twice.

But nevertheless, if I was worried about a publisher yoinking the credit for my game, I could always make sure people knew who was behind it. Like naming it "The Ice Cream Joe Adventure, starring Ice Cream Joe" which utilizes the revolutionary Ice Cream Joe 3D engine, and in the beginning of the game I could have a little scene that rolls credits as follows:

Director... Ice Cream Joe
Lead Programmer... Ice Cream Joe
Junior Programmer... Ice Cream Joe
Junior Programmer... Ice Cream Joe
Junior Programmer... Ice Cream Joe
Graphic Artist ... Ice Cream Joe
Sound and Music ... Ice Cream Joe
(and so on and so on)
Level Designer... Ice Cream Joe
Publisher ... Ambrosia Software

That ought to clear up any doubt in the minds of the players :D

ICJ

[Carlos Camacho]

Will the real Ice Cream Joe please stand up? :p

You need an Avatar... great handle.

[Ice Cream Joe]

Woo hoo! 6 down, 42 to go ;)

Seriously though, it's like a half-tribute-half-shoutout to the baddest ice cream man out there. Just picture an ice cream truck, parked in some random dude's yard, covered in wood from the fence that it just drove through, and picture three middle school kids and a lanky ice cream man in his 20's all standing on top of it, finally able to reach the top of the raspberry bush "where the biggest raspberries were." :p

Sliding back into topic though... just how much credit DOES Ambrosia take for a game, anyway? I know on some of their old games they still mention the name of whoever developed the game (Ben Spees for Harry, David Adelaide for Swoop, etc.) When you say full credit, can the REAL developer still, say, use the game in a portfolio when he/she applies for a job at a game company? Maybe intellectual property rights could be another column in the publisher table :D

ICJ

[inio]

None of this is fact, just 2nd-hand (or worse) information related to a recent release:

1. The Developer got top billing in the credits
2. The Developer still retains all IP rights related to the game and original code in it
3. Ambroia Software™ licensed the (exclusive?) distribution rights for the game from The Developer. In return The Developer got assistance in development (music, sound, networking code, etc), and a portion of the distribution procedes.

Take all the above information with a grain of salt, as I made half of it up off the top of my head. The best way to get a real answer is to email Ambrosia Software™ and ask for yourself.

[codemattic]

>>
Take all the above information with a grain of salt, as I made half of it up off the top of my head. The best way to get a real answer is to email Ambrosia SoftwareÅ and ask for yourself.
<<

I spoke with someone who was exploring distributing a game with Ambrosia. He chose not to. He said he was shocked at how small his royalty would be. However I think Ambrosia/Freeverse/Spiderweb do bring quite a bit to the table that you cant dismiss out of hand. 99% of shareware is crap - but when you see a new game from Ambrosia/Freeverse/Spiderweb you always d/l it because they have a history of quality work. They will make sure that the artwork/music/sound/user-interface is polished. They will handle the biz side - are you really ready for emails about lost registration codes, credit card chargebacks, support questions, etc?

If you really think you are not just writing one game - but are going to make many, top quality games - then invest in your own company, so your hard work doesnt go to further the reputation of someone else's company.

I dont think the person I spoke with ever finished his game (even though the beta was quite playable and fun). Which goes to show that it can be difficult to finish a programming project without someone else handling the artwork/sounds/ui and having set deadlines and milestones etc...

cheers,
Codemattic

[DaFalcon]

Sounds like good advice, Codemattic.

[moki]

Originally posted by ichiboo
Hey guys,

I was wondering if any of you guys know of any software promoters, or people who can advertise a software product, other than AmbrosiaSW. I love Ambrosia and all, but seeing as how they have treated all the developers who have worked for them, I'd really rather not go that route. Anyone have any ideas? :confused:

Seeing how we have treated whom, exactly? All of the developers who continue working with us on a regular basis? Do you have any facts you'd like to substaniate, or are you just slinging mud?

[moki]

Originally posted by ichiboo
What I mean is, anyhting that is put out under Ambrosia's name, Ambrosia takes full credit, even if they don't lay a finger on it... And I personally want my team to be given full credit for having designed the game that we are trying to create. I understand that some credit will be taken, whomever I choose... however, some are less arrogant about that sort of thing. Anyway, that is what I meant :D

First of all, there isn't a single product we have released -- ever -- that we have not had a significant contribution towards. From providing an array of developmental libraries that handle many common functions like sound, networking, core OS, etc. (all of which are cross platform) to spending considerable amounts of time helping to design and perfect the games in question, to offering significant technical expertise to help get projects debugged and shipped. It is simply patently false to claim what you have -- and offensive, given all of the late nights that myself and others at Ambrosia have put in on all of our projects to make them happen.

Secondly, we do not take "full credit" for anything. I defy you to find a single game we offer where the developers of said product are not listed. It just doesn't happen. Yes, of course we put our logo on the games, and say "From Ambrosia Software" -- that's part of the package of working with a publisher, and it actually HELPS the product by building a coherent message that "this is an Ambrosia game". It's called branding, and while it may not stroke your ego as much as you'd like, it will help you sell your games.

Finally, before you start insulting people you do not know, and making assumptions about situations you don't have knowledge of, I'd suggest you consider finding out what the real situation is.

[moki]

Originally posted by codemattic
I spoke with someone who was exploring distributing a game with Ambrosia. He chose not to. He said he was shocked at how small his royalty would be. However I think Ambrosia/Freeverse/Spiderweb do bring quite a bit to the table that you cant dismiss out of hand. 99% of shareware is crap - but when you see a new game from Ambrosia/Freeverse/Spiderweb you always d/l it because they have a history of quality work. They will make sure that the artwork/music/sound/user-interface is polished. They will handle the biz side - are you really ready for emails about lost registration codes, credit card chargebacks, support questions, etc?


Interesting. I don't recall offering a contract to anyone in recent memory that was turned down. Could you refresh my memory?

In any event, yes, publishers of any kind do take a large cut -- it is typical in the retail world for an unknown developer to get 10% of *net* sales (if you do sign a contract for net sales, please pay close attention to how "net" is defined). Obviously as your reputation is more established, you can command a higher percentage rate, but publishers do always get the lion's share.

I realize that the developer's perspective is that all of the "work" is coding the project -- but that really isn't true. Marketing, technical support, quality assurance, promotions, contracting artists / musicians, operations, sales -- all of these boring things are part of the package if you want your product to succeed, and their cost always outstrips the actual developmental investment.

The question you need to ask yourself is "What do I want to be doing?" If you want to be doing all of the above, then you want to go into business for yourself, and you may not need a publisher. Even if you do a stellar job at all of these things, however (which is not easy), you still may not do as well as working with a publisher, even after they take their cut.

The reason is simple -- you need an established name, contacts, and experience to really succeed at all of these endeavors, and in addition, all of the time you spend doing these things is time taken away from doing what you do best: writing games.

Originally posted by codemattic
I dont think the person I spoke with ever finished his game (even though the beta was quite playable and fun). Which goes to show that it can be difficult to finish a programming project without someone else handling the artwork/sounds/ui and having set deadlines and milestones etc...

This is one of the reasons we generally don't even look at games until they are close to the beta stage (unless they are from a developer we have worked with before, or had produced products we can look at. Being able to actually finish a project is a skill unto itself, and one that isn't easily learned without doing (or working with people who can guide you towards making this happen).

[inio]

While you're feeling generous moki:

Some friends and I are working on a uDevGame 2002 entry which we think will be marketable with further development after the contest. However, uDevGame entries must release source code (under a DOOM-Style license at least). Would this source code release of an early version preclude Ambrosia Software from even thinking about publishing of a fully developed version of the game?

(DOOM-Style license basically says "read all you want, but you can only copy & paste 1kloc)

[moki]

No

[DaFalcon]

Hello Andrew, nice to see you on these boards :-)

Thanks for all the information, I've always been curious how your relationship with developers is. It is very true that the Ambrosia brand is a very strong motivation for mac users to try out a game, and that they all have a polish often lacking in shareware offerings. It is good to know that Ambrosia itself has a strong hand in making that happen.

[ZeroCool]

moki--
In any event, yes, publishers of any kind do take a large cut -- it is typical in the retail world for an unknown developer to get 10% of *net* sales (if you do sign a contract for net sales, please pay close attention to how "net" is defined).

hmmm...... I got a "what if", that might never happen (I really don't know if it hasn't happened already), but let's say an unknown game developer makes a game, has absolutley no help with making the actual stand-alone application, but needs someone to do everything else. The developer wants Ambrosia to publish it. Ambrosia loves it so much they make no changes to the game itself (except making the ambrosia intro and other stuff regarding the credits of the game). Now Ambrosia does all the advertising and promoting.
Would you still only give 10% of *net* sales to the unkown developer? (i say "only" because the developer did the music,sfx,graphics,titles,interface)

Okay, so the above situation seems very unlikley but say it did happen......
What percent of the *net* sales would you give now?

[inio]

Originally posted by ZeroCool
The developer wants Ambrosia to publish it. Ambrosia loves it so much they make no changes to the game itself (except making the ambrosia intro and other stuff regarding the credits of the game). Now Ambrosia does all the advertising and promoting.
Would you still only give 10% of *net* sales to the unkown developer?hopefully saving moki a little time here (drop me a line if this is inappropriate and I'll delete it):

Note that Andrew was talking about the retail (box-on-a-shelf) world. I wouldn't expect too much more though, even if you do develop a complete package, for a couple reasons. There's more than just advertising and promotion left to do. Ambrosia would want to run at least a short beta test to assure it was bug-free. Also, I doubt they would ship a game that didn't use monitor_tool and and never one that didn't use reg_tool (and any other _tools that are relevant) for two reasons:
1. They're tested and proven
2. If a bug or incompatibility does pop up in one of them, its very easy to upgrade just that _tool and release a new version.

So in short: if Ambrosia releases a game, it's going to have Ambrosia code in it.

[moki]

Originally posted by ZeroCool

Okay, so the above situation seems very unlikley but say it did happen......
What percent of the *net* sales would you give now?

I didn't say *we* give 10% of net sales -- we've never had a contract like that with anyone; we typically do gross sales, and the amount varies from developer to developer, based on a number factors.

Contracts are always starting points -- a publisher will offer you a contract, you review it, propose changes, and you end up with a tailored contract for the particular situation.

That's why I can't give you a good answer other than "No, we wouldn't give 10% in that situation" -- we've never done a contract for net sales (we absorb all of the marketing, distribution, tech support, etc. costs), and we've never done one for as low as 10%. And yes, if the product was literally handed to us on a platter, and no changes were required (which is highly unlikely), then it would warrant a higher rate than one that required more involvement.

[Ice Cream Joe]

Would you still only give 10% of *net* sales to the unkown developer? (i say "only" because the developer did the music,sfx,graphics,titles,interface)

Okay, so the above situation seems very unlikley but say it did happen......
What percent of the *net* sales would you give now?


"Only" is a funny word to attach to a percentage... I don't know all that much about business but I do know when it comes to money, any percentage is a Big Number. And I don't doubt for a second that going with Ambrosia/Spiderweb/Freeverse/whoever will easily sell over ten times as many copies of your game as opposed to striking out on your own. I remembered a section on marketing in the book "Black Art of Macintosh Game Programming" where it mentioned more than once that without advertising, a game goes nowhere. (Ambrosia also happens to be mentioned in the section titled "Making Shareware Work"... )

Also, when it comes to advertising, games branded by the big shareware publishers get respect when they get sent to websites like macgamer.com... if you were striking out on your own, your game most likely will end up in the "Download center" bin, where surfers will have to sort through all the crap in there to get to your game. If you have a brand of a major publisher, though, it will probably get a professional-looking review (which will probably give bonus points on the polish and stability) as well as several links from the front page.

Money wise, it seems like the publisher deserves whatever percentage they name. And, to be honest, if you're in this purely for the money... why are you in Shareware, anyway?

As a designer, I would be more happy with seeing my idea get out to as many people as possible, especially if it was a new style of gameplay. My big concern was, had I then applied for a job at a commercial game studio, could I show them the game and legally say "I designed this," or "I designed the original prototype, but Ambrosia added the graphics and polish, and put in more weapons, options, and a parrot that comes and kicks your ass if you don't pay the shareware fee?"

Ice Cream Joe

P.S. I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but when a developer works with Ambrosia on a game, Ambrosia takes over the tech support, as well. "Only" 10%....

[moki]

Originally posted by Ice Cream Joe
As a designer, I would be more happy with seeing my idea get out to as many people as possible, especially if it was a new style of gameplay. My big concern was, had I then applied for a job at a commercial game studio, could I show them the game and legally say "I designed this," or "I designed the original prototype, but Ambrosia added the graphics and polish, and put in more weapons, options, and a parrot that comes and kicks your ass if you don't pay the shareware fee?"


Any publisher worth their salt should allow you to be in the credits for the game, and you certainly should be able to show your work to prospective employers, and say "I did this!" That isn't even an issue with us.

If you're worried about it being an issue with your publisher, get it specifically written into the contract. I can't imagine any publisher objecting, and if they do, that might be a good cue to look elsewhere.

One other quick note I'd like to touch upon. As a company, we're interested in making money, and making our developers money, but we're also interested in releasing quality games, making sure our users have a good experience with our software, and just plain making the games fun.

Different publishers have different motivations; we've been doing what we've been doing for a very long time. We like doing it. If a publisher makes you an offer for your game instantly, while it may be gratifying to you, I'd be leary. A publisher should take a good bit of time to really evaluate your product before they make you even a preliminary offer. If they don't, they are likely more interested in just "picking up product" than anything else.

It's a common tactic to try to obtain as many titles as possible, to get a publisher's name out there, and to have enough of a productline that you can talk to mail order and retail stores about picking up your products for distribution. This isn't necessarily in the best interest of the developer to have their product indiscriminantly picked up, even if it does make you feel good initially.

[ZeroCool]

Ice Cream Joe--
I remembered a section on marketing in the book "Black Art of Macintosh Game Programming" where it mentioned more than once that without advertising, a game goes nowhere. (Ambrosia also happens to be mentioned in the section titled "Making Shareware Work"... )
Okay, that's true and I own a copy of that book as well, but the product can be just as important.

Forget debugging, polishing and everything else dealing with working on the game.....

You can include advertising, handling user registration, and all that good stuff.......

Now take the following into consideration.......

If the product were good enough to practically sell itself (I mean Ice Cold, no mistakes good) then would this alter the percentage?
(See I'm not trying to be extreme (or extremely stupid) and say the unkown gets 50% of net sales, I'm thinking more along the lines of 15-20% maybe less.)

If I made a game I honestly wouldn't care about how much bank I would make off it. (but I would like a reasonable profit :rolleyes: )

BTW the comment directly above this one has absolutley nothing to do with Ambrosia or software promotion in general!

[moki]

Originally posted by ZeroCool
If the product were good enough to practically sell itself (I mean Ice Cold, no mistakes good) then would this alter the percentage?
(See I'm not trying to be extreme (or extremely stupid) and say the unkown gets 50% of net sales, I'm thinking more along the lines of 15-20% maybe less.)

Yes, as I mentioned, there are many factors that would possibly alter this percentage (not just with us, but with other publishers as well).

[Carlos Camacho]

moki/,

In reading this thread, I have come to two conclusions:
1.) Developers need to realize that each deal will be unique based on a number of factors
2.) There might be mis-conceptions and other myths floating around that are worth clearing up.

In regards to #2, just reading your answers peeked my interested. Where I spoke in another thread about participating more here, this is an example of what I was getting at. You might (or should) cover points 1&2 on your website, or on an email by email manner, but wouldn't it be good to have an Interview with your alter ego Andrew so that things that were mentioned in this thread could be answered and discussed. So next time, someone posts on A.S., or asks the question on publisher vs. do it alone, we can point them to "said" interview and say "Read that interview" and then if you have questions, contact A.S. directly. The same would be good for Freeverse,Kagi (sure, let's lump 'em in there too),Plaid Software, etc...

This is a type of interview that people here need to read and one that we don't normally get to read from A.S. on MacGamer/IMG as they are dealing with game players.

If you think it a worthy idea, please email me directly and once the new iDevGame site is launched and uDevGame is underway, I can prepare my mic.

BTW.. to the member who posted about their uDevGame entry. The contest offers a few options of licenses. Tis true that the "uDevGame License" is most strict, and along the lines of Doom code license. We don't require your finsihed game assets either, placer art is fine so that the project can at least compile. So what I am saying is, there is nothing holding you back from turning your uDevGame entry into a big hit after the contest.

Cheers

[Carlos Camacho]

I was in the process of cleaning up old articles for the new server when I came to Tom Slopers' article that may relate to this thread. Tom has a lot of background in the industry, so if you missed it, check it out at:

Financial Aspects of Game Development
http://www.idevgames.com/articleshow.php3?showid=29

Cheers

[DaFalcon]

Carlos, that's a good article. And one I completely skipped over in the past when looking at the articles page. Perhaps it is a bit late to be making suggestions for the new site, but a short description of each article (or the first paragraph of the article) on the articles page would not only help entice readers to look into an article more than just the title does, it would also help keep the list from looking so short (even though it is not).

[codemattic]

It seems to be somewhat of an industry secret, but can you tell us how many registrations a Ambrosia hit gets? How many do you think if it was distributed solo? Unlike, say soundscan which gives you a feel for how many music-cd's are sold - there is no shareware equivalent. Kagi used to publish the top ten on their web page - but no longer. I can of course see the danger of this. If you sell too much - people might feel they dont have to register since you already have so many registrations. Too little - people might not try your wares since obviously those that had, didnt feel it was registration-worthy.

>>
Interesting. I don't recall offering a contract to anyone in recent memory that was turned down. Could you refresh my memory?
<<
this was more than a year ago - and to be honest it is possible that it was that he spoke with a developer friend that worked for you and asked what deal he got - which of course would make it 2nd hand confidentiality-agreement-breaking information. I cant find the email exchange - it was a while (and a number of computers) ago. I liked/trusted this person. He never gave me hard numbers - just that he thought it would be better to go it alone.

>>
In any event, yes, publishers of any kind do take a large cut
<<
I dont think my post was downplaying the role that shareware publishers play in producing/distributing wares. There is a lot more that just code/design that goes into a successful title. Im not minimizing that. Most authors dont want to be book publishers - most rock-stars dont want to be music publishers. Programming (I find) is rewarding - its like you have this puzzle to figure out. It would seem very rewarding to concentrate just on that - and leave all that other *stuff* to someone else.

Fine - the internet bubble has burst. Most of it was junk anyway. But while overhyped - the internet does change things for us. There is something to be said for wanting to be the next Ambrosia. Unlike, say, book publishing - there is minimal startup costs involved. You need a server and bandwidth (which you can rent from an ISP when you start out), Kagi or DigitalRiver or someone to take cards, and lots and lots and lots (and lots) of endless elbowgrease. You first games will sell nowhere near as well as if they were dirstributed by Ambrosia. But you are working on getting a reputation from the netizens for doing good work. Maybe your next title will get more downloads because people sort of remember that first title. Its massive amounts of sweat equity - with no guarantees. But - what do you want? Folks, do you want to sign your emails/posts 'el Presidente' and have that mean something? Personally Im not sure - I can imagine easily getting so swamped with the technical details of running a business that I dont focus on the code like the laser I need to be. But still...

>>
Being able to actually finish a project is a skill unto itself, and one that isn't easily learned without doing
<<
you aint kidding. In his case - he was (I thought) pretty far along. In my case I have a hard drive full of aborted projects that I thought were good ideas when I started. Im guessing this sounds very familiar to most people reading this.

I see a lot of posts here on idev along the lines of "Im making a game" (who of us isnt?) - "you should contribute artwork/code/design - I cant pay you but it will be good experience for you." The majority of these are going nowhere (Hooptie being the very happy exception) Having a geocities web-page or a yahoo-list doesnt make you a developer. Show me one project you have ever finished. You want art - fine - show artists your game alpha/beta with your placeholder coder art. You need code - fine - show programmers your design document. Otherwise - why join you - b/c you know enough html to put up a web page saying how kewl its going to be?

Build something first. Get people on your team 2nd. If you get people to join you (or work for you) - you are taking their time and skills. You now have a responsibility to make sure you finish what you started.

That said - so I am not a complete hypocrite - Im going to keep my big yap shut for a while and get back to programming.

Codemattic

PS - I was one of your beta testers for Maelstrom waaay back when the internet was but a gleam in TBL's eye. (I think I was listed as Mathias) It was fun - and I learned much about how projects progress and grow. And of course the importance of enlisting good artists and writers and testers.

[moki]

Originally posted by codemattic
It seems to be somewhat of an industry secret, but can you tell us how many registrations a Ambrosia hit gets? How many do you think if it was distributed solo?

Sorry, that information is private.

Another poster in this thread was right, in that if a product isn't marketed, supported, distributed, and reviewed widely and well, it isn't going to do well.

Originally posted by codemattic
this was more than a year ago - and to be honest it is possible that it was that he spoke with a developer friend that worked for you and asked what deal he got - which of course would make it 2nd hand confidentiality-agreement-breaking information. I cant find the email exchange - it was a while (and a number of computers) ago. I liked/trusted this person. He never gave me hard numbers - just that he thought it would be better to go it alone.

Many people who are inexperienced in the business make the same mistake; they say "What?? I'm only getting 20%?? Screw that, I'll do it all myself." Meanwhile the reality is that the support costs in terms of marketing, tech support, promotion, contact with reviewers, distribution, quality assurance, etc, etc. are significant -- and as I pointed out earlier, any time you spend doing these things is time spend away from your skill as a game developer.

Here's a simple analogy from my life right now. I just bought a new house, and I want it painted. Buying the supplies won't cost me much money, and I might say "Hell, I'm not paying someone $3,000 to paint my house when the paint is only $200!" However, I'm not a skilled painter, and there is more to it than a layman might imagine. Additionally, it would take me a lot of time to paint the house myself, and I can earn more money per hour at doing what I do well (developing/publishing) than painting my house. I paid to have it painted.

Much of this is hidden people who don't know how things really work -- they say "I'll write my game, throw it up on VersionTracker, and keep all my money -- screw the greedy publishers who want to take 80% of it!" This is understandable, but flawed thinking.

Originally posted by codemattic
involved. You need a server and bandwidth (which you can rent from an ISP when you start out), Kagi or DigitalRiver or someone to take cards, and lots and lots and lots (and lots) of endless elbowgrease. You first games will sell nowhere near as well as if they were dirstributed by Ambrosia. But you are working on getting a reputation from the netizens for doing good work. Maybe your next title will get more downloads because people sort of remember that first title. Its massive amounts of sweat equity - with no guarantees. But - what do you want? Folks, do you want to sign your emails/posts 'el Presidente' and have that mean something? Personally Im not sure - I can imagine easily getting so swamped with the technical details of running a business that I dont focus on the code like the laser I need to be. But still....

That's a personal choice. If you want to try to "go your own", then go for it. I think you may find, however (like most developers find) that they loathe to do the day to day work that needs to be done to build and maintain something like this. This is something that is hard to explain to someone who has it set in their mind, and has never been through the actual process. It is exceedingly difficult to work with people who are new to the industry, because they don't even know enough to know what they don't know -- if you get my meaning.

There's no reason you can't be an "el Presidente" of your own development company, and still work with a publisher. These infrastructure institutions exist because they are useful and needed, not just to siphon off cash from poor lowly developers.

I can tell you from my own personal experience that there are many times that I wish I were able to spend more time developing. Don't get me wrong, I love doing what I'm doing -- but I don't spend as much time coding as I'd like to, and it is hard to really perfect your skills unless you are immersed in it 24/7 for your job.

Originally posted by codemattic
you aint kidding. In his case - he was (I thought) pretty far along. In my case I have a hard drive full of aborted projects that I thought were good ideas when I started. Im guessing this sounds very familiar to most people reading this.

This is another thing an experience publisher can help you with -- they will make sure the product gets done. It's incredibly easy to get a product to 80% completion -- it is hard to finish a polished game. Someone with experience doing that, and the technical tools/skills to make it happen can be invaluable. "Management" is often derided as doing nothing useful, but this really isn't the case.

Some of the projects we've worked on very likely would never have shipped (or at least not in the polished form they did) without our direct involvement as a producer. But how do you quantify something like this? It is easy to say after the fact "Well, I could have done it without you" (and this is true in some cases, but definitely not all) -- but it may not be accurate.

Originally posted by codemattic
I see a lot of posts here on idev along the lines of "Im making a game" (who of us isnt?) - "you should contribute artwork/code/design - I cant pay you but it will be good experience for you." The majority of these are going nowhere (Hooptie being the very happy exception) Having a geocities web-page or a yahoo-list doesnt make you a developer. Show me one project you have ever finished. You want art - fine - show artists your game alpha/beta with your placeholder coder art. You need code - fine - show programmers your design document. Otherwise - why join you - b/c you know enough html to put up a web page saying how kewl its going to be?

Sure, most projects go nowhere -- but if you sign on with a publisher, they *will* go somewhere, you can count on it (unless the publisher realizes it is hopeless and decides to cut their losses -- which has only happened to us once, and given that person's track record after the fact, we're incredibly glad we didn't end up working with them).

Originally posted by codemattic
PS - I was one of your beta testers for Maelstrom waaay back when the internet was but a gleam in TBL's eye. (I think I was listed as Mathias) It was fun - and I learned much about how projects progress and grow. And of course the importance of enlisting good artists and writers and testers.

Ah, cool. Yeah, that was a fun project. At that point, I already had years of experience developing and shipping products (I started in high school), and someone had posted something online about it not being possible to do fast 256 color animation on the state of the art Macs at the time. I took it as a challenge, and it was a fun way to hone my 68K asm skills.

The source code to Maelstrom is incredible ugly, because the actual game itself is written almost 100% in assembler -- but it was extremely fast, and it was a case where without that technical base, the game itself wouldn't have turned out to be fun. It was written over the summer during my junior year in college (I went to school for photojournalism). Here's the asm source code to the core of the game; no rocket science at all, but a lot of time was spent tweaking the critical portions of the code to make sure it was fast enough:

http://janus.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/MaelstromBlit.c

That was definitely one of the most enjoyable projects I've worked on -- but again, I had some experience already, and I was the "strong lead" that is needed to make a project succeed. The artists who worked on it were incredible at making artwork that for the time was better than anything else out there.

Ah, the days of my old 20mhz Mac IIsi....

http://www.apple-history.com/IIsi.html

That's right folks -- Maelstrom may not seem like much today, but I had to write it so that it would animate fast on a 20mhz processor with a 20mhz bus. How times have changed...

[moki]

One other thing real quick. You may think you've come up with a great game design -- and perhaps you have -- but it is also extremely useful to be working with someone who has experience in the industry, that can help you with the design.

They can tell you what is fun and what isn't -- this may seem obvious, but it actually is a skill that takes a significant amount of experience to be good at. Many people don't even know what they want; beta testers and users may think they know what they want, but they often don't. It takes talent and experience to be able to diagnose such things.

Here's a recent specific example. As you know, we just released a game called pop-pop. The author of the game did an incredible job taking an existing concept, and moving it far beyond "breakout" -- giving the game an enourmous amount of style of fun (he also did the artwork -- quite a talented fellow). However, in the original game, the paddle just moved side-to-side like the old breakout paddle did. This was OK, but didn't feel satisfying to me.

I suggest that the paddle should work like an air-hockey paddle -- you should be able to put English on the ball, by hitting it on the side, speeding it up by whacking it, or slowing it down by doing a "fade hit" on the ball. Not only did this make the game more fun, but it make it more tactile -- the gamer gets really physically into the game by thrusting and whacking at the ball.

When the game was in late beta, everything was looking good, but something else was bugging me. The the game was, when you sent bricks over to the other player, they appeared as solid black bricks, with one flashing brick. If you hit that one flashing brick in time, you sent *all* of the bricks back to the other player as solid bricks.

This made it really dangerous to send a lot of bricks over to the other player. It felt wrong. It felt like you were always playing defensively, trying not to send bricks over to the other player. You weren't attacking at all, you were playing scared. It also introduced an achilles heel into the game: it was pretty easy to win by clearing the screen if you got good at hitting this one brick, and it always felt cheap if you lost in that manner (which happened a lot).

OK, so I identified something I didn't like -- that is a skill in itself, but more importantly is being able to suggest a solution to the problem (which can only happen when the problem is fully identified and understood). I suggested that you had to hit each individual brick in order to send it back, and that any bricks you didn't kill would turn to solid bricks (two hits to get rid of). The latter part of this idea was nixed and never tried, because the author thought it would be too harsh -- but the former suggestion is how the game is now.

pop-pop very nearly shipped with the gameplay as I originally described; this is an example of what I mean by an experienced eye being a good thing. It isn't a statement about the author's skill at all -- but rather that no one can see everything, and having a critical set of experienced eyes looking at the game can be extroadinarily useful.

In terms of the technical side of things, we provided a number of libraries for use in pop-pop, including our cross-platform networking library. This in itself was useful, because it let the game author do what he does best (design good games) and not have to worry about the technical details of such low-level tools. Yes, there are "open source" alternatives to things like networking libraries, but many of them aren't that great, and unless you know a lot about networking, you don't know enough to know why they aren't that great. A catch-22 in a sense, because you're using the libraries because you don't want to have to deal with the details, but if you don't know those details, you won't understand why your networking performance sucks.

More important that the actual code libraries is the experience developing/debugging such things. It's one thing to use a networking library; it is another thing entirely to know how to use it effectively in high-latency environments such as an Internetworkable game. Having source code or a library is one thing; having intimate knowledge and experience about a complex thing like networking is another -- and this is a case where we were able to help make it all happen.

Somone with industry experience can also help by suggesting things like what features *need* to be present in a game for it to go over well. At a time when many developers were pissed off about Mac OS X, and everything new they had to learn, we were heavily recommending that any games being worked on in that timeframe were Mac OS X native. We knew that OS X was Apple's future, we knew that Carbonizing a game wasn't really that hard (even if the initial approach/learning curve was frustrating), and we knew that while only a small percentage of the Mac base had adopted Mac OS X, those were the active buyers/enthusiasts.

So we insisted on Mac OS X native versions, and in some cases this would not have happened withot our insistance (and indeed, we did the carbonization of one game in-house, because we deemed it that critical to have happen).

These are just a few specific examples of how working with someone else who has experience is incredibly useful -- something that may seem somewhat intangeable. Finally, don't discount the value of having a "management" team there that just makes sure work is getting done -- holding people accountable, asking for progress reports, making suggestions, and just generally producing the title to make sure it ships.

It is really hard to work on your own, especially after you've been doing it for a number of years. Having experienced people there as a sanity check, for guidance purposes, and to make sure the project is moving forward really can't be underestimated.

[moki]

(I didn't get to finish my thought, and this forum isn't letting me edit my message for some reason)

re: working on your own, what can often happen is you become closed to the input of others, your motivation gets sapped, and you may well end up going in the wrong direction in terms of over-engineering something, focusing on what isn't important, etc. Working with someone can mitigate these factors, especially when they are experienced at product development.

This says nothing about the talent of the people involved, but rather simply that it is much easier to learn from someone else's mistakes/experience than do make your own. Often developers are too close to a project to realize what they could be doing better, or what they should be focusing on.

Being open to the input of others in situations like this is incredibly important, assuming that input it useful.

[inio]

Originally posted by Camacho
To the member who posted about their uDevGame entry. The contest offers a few options of licenses. Tis true that the "uDevGame License" is most strict, and along the lines of Doom code license. We don't require your finsihed game assets either, placer art is fine so that the project can at least compile. So what I am saying is, there is nothing holding you back from turning your uDevGame entry into a big hit after the contest.

The publisher might not want to publish a game where large amounts of the original code are available. If a publisher wants control over who develops content for their game, having existing code to read and utilize the package files would make developing an editor significantly easier. It could also lead to unauthorized (and prohibited by the license) clones of the final product. And certainly it would cause a few idiots to write very angry emails about them taking an opensource program, making a commercial version, and not releasing the source.

[Carlos Camacho]

The publisher might not want to publish a game where large amounts of the original code are available. If a publisher wants control over who develops content for their game, having existing code to read and utilize the package files would make developing an editor significantly easier. It could also lead to unauthorized (and prohibited by the license) clones of the final product. And certainly it would cause a few idiots to write very angry emails about them taking an opensource program, making a commercial version, and not releasing the source.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that publishers would rush to make your game a hit. I only mentioned that entering uDevGame doesn't mean that development of your game must come to an end. I would like to see any game from uDevGame taken to the next step, in terms of polish, graphics, new gameplay ideas and so on. To me, entering (and winning) the contest is a good way to open future doors.

Back to working on the site. :(

[griffin239]

FANTASTIC THREAD!
Thanks for getting into the trenches with Bayonette and Bloodied fists Moki...love to see misconceptions cleaned up.

I recently replied to a poster to the Apple dev lists that was gathering info for a report about a 4 year game dev curriculum at a university.
I pretty much in short told him much of what Moki has been saying here...that 4 years pressed into a game programming mold is useless and that colleges should take all the curriculums involved in the game dev process and bring them together so that each side can ad their input:
for instance the finance instructors/students could more easily approach that end than any artists or programmers would ever want to even look at. The programmers could tell the artist.."you have to many damned poly's" (you see these multimillion poly models in the dev school ads all the time)...etc and so on. Forcing people into classes that they have no intention of learning does no good..so there has to be a middle ground where all sides come together..psuedo corporations. Something the big game houses should invest in and charge for instead of letting zero industry experience instructors take all that green for "out of the book" curriculums.

Any product is a lot more than just putting the work into it.
You can make all the pizza you want..but you need to pay someone to deliver it! Having a web site doesn't guarantee people will go to it. True 99% of us would hate having to deal with the business end of things...My wife started a company in my name...once the tax forms started rolling in..I was sick..no income, no clients and tax forms to fill out??? No, thats not the life for me I have videos to make, levels to design, ideas to perpetuate! I shut that red tape despenser down as soon as I could.

Let someone else handle the B#llS---, I'm happy to be paid fairly for my effort and time. But trying to break my back alone...whats the by doing every detail of the industry whats pleasure in that?

When it comes to games, I'm much more happy pursuing the activity of game design than I am about any preconceptions of the outcome..especially about the eventual income or lack thereof.

What Moki says about going it alone is on the nails...in the long run you are going to be roadkill, and their are no Martyrs in game dev! As a developer...looking for work, you are more likely to get a job by having a game with a publishers name on it than telling a prospective employer "I made this game and noone ever played it! But my mom and dad say it ROCKS! Too bad my wife left me cause I never was too busy with the dev and business end of things. Did I mention Mom and dad think it ROCKS?"

Oh one more thing I mentioned to the poster to the dev list...and I want to see how many developers and maybe some publishers feel about this:
If I had $40K and was about to blow it on four years of game design school, wouldn't it be better to go offer a game company the money and get the training directly from the source??? Would any game company turn down an intern who is fronting $40,000???
I wish I had the money...I'd be a fixture at Freeverse today (they're local).

$40K is a small figure, 80% of american college students come out of school $80K in the hole..looking at entry level jobs.

[jonasbay]

(I didn't get to finish my thought, and this forum isn't letting me edit my message for some reason)

This was, because you weren't logged in when you wrote the posts. ;)

[DaFalcon]

Inio, I just noticed your new avatar. Very coolthough I also liked the subtle, difficult to figure out one from before too (not that this isn't difficult to figure out too, if you don't notice your username...)

Griffin, good point. I wonder what a game developer would do if you offered to pay them $40k to teach you to make games with them. Probably blink alot and then shake your hand. That's what I'd do.