KTA Tennis

[funkboy]

My 2003 uDevGame entry has moved forward since last fall, with me revisiting the code the past two weeks and trying to clean it up and get it ready for a real shareware release.

I just uploaded version 0.62, which has some player sprites created by me (the one on the bottom). I really need some artwork help, so if anyone's interested in doing so, please, please, I'm begging you to contact me.

Anyway, try the game out and let me know how fun, how much improved, or how much worse it is since the last time you played it.

http://www.trapzero.com/Downloads/ktatennis-osx.zip <-- Mac OS X
or
http://www.trapzero.com/Downloads/ktatennis-ppc.sit <-- Mac OS 7, 8, 9

[Leisure Suit Lurie]

Hm. You did this in Runtime Revolution?

[funkboy]

Actually, I created it with MetaCard version 2.4.3, which is essentially the same as Revolution, yes. I didn't use the actual Revolution program, though, since I don't have a license that's new enough for me to use it.

I'm thinking of porting my work to Revolution soon here, but it seems the newest version causes some performance hit on my games... and it's especially apparent in a game like KTA Tennis.

What did you think of the fun factor of the game?

[Leisure Suit Lurie]

Speed is surprisingly good actually. Fun. Very NES looking.

[funkboy]

Glad you enjoy it. Is the NES-looking comment a positive or negative one? It has a very simplistic look right now, and I hope to dress it up before I release the game as shareware.

[Max]

The game is nice. The A.I. is quite stupid in novice mode but I like that. :p I hate it when the game decides which sides I swing (ex. ball on the right side, character swing left side). Also, I donít feel I have control over the power used to hit the ball. Overall, itís a great start.

[funkboy]

Glad you've enjoyed the game, Max. The swing side is arbitrary - if you're close enough, it should hit the ball. However, it is kind of odd, I agree.

You can hold forward and backwards while hitting the ball to somewhat control the speed: holding forward hits it faster, holding backwards makes it slower.

Would you like to see a power bar implemented? Maybe, so when the key is held, it powers up the shot?

[Pheonix]

KTA tennis was the game which brought me to IDG, i downloaded it from apple, then clicked the "Vote Now" button. I loved the site, so i stayed. It was also the game which brought me to Wolfire, but that's another story.

[funkboy]

KTA tennis was the game which brought me to IDG, i downloaded it from apple, then clicked the "Vote Now" button. I loved the site, so i stayed. It was also the game which brought me to Wolfire, but that's another story.

Wow! That's a great story :)

Did you find it from the Apple Products Guide? It seems like that's the biggest traffic driver for Mac software on the internet!

What are you doing for Wolfire? Are you interested in doing art for the game? ;)

[Pheonix]

Wow! That's a great story :)

Did you find it from the Apple Products Guide? It seems like that's the biggest traffic driver for Mac software on the internet!

What are you doing for Wolfire? Are you interested in doing art for the game? ;)

No, i have to say that i am "Graphicaly challenged". I beta-test for wolfire, and I am currently in progress of making maps for the release of Lugaru.MY NAME IS GOING TO BE IN THE CREDITS! :D

[funkboy]

No problem, but that's great you're working on/with Lugaru. It's an amazingly great game!

I'm thinking of implementing a different kind of hitting with the keyboard - holding the button down to change the power of the hit, with a little meter showing up around the player to show how hard the ball is going to be hit. It will also make it easier to hit the ball, I think.

Does this sound like a good idea?

[DM6]

funkboy,

I like it so far. It's fun, and it plays well. I thought the pause you implemented after each point was called was very "tennis".

I played 10 sets with "Intermediate", and although the AI has a few annoying habits, I had a lot of fun. Sometimes the character didn't even try to return my most plain-vanilla serve. Also I found "faults" with his serving style: for an intermediate player he seems quite unashamed of his aim. I wanted to let it slide and just have fun racking up the points from double faults, but it did get tiresome. If you're governing his aim with a random number, maybe it would make sense to hard-code some "shame" into his AI; make him less likely to double fault after the first fault. Just a thought.

Sometimes the collision handling confused me. Are you in range when you are near the ball, but not right on top of it? The AI character can hit balls which are clearly feet away from his racket. I like your idea of charging up with the keydown and then hitting on the keyup, but I feel like a meter would only be more confusing. Maybe you could draw the player's shadow too (i notice you show the ball's shadow already) so we could have some comparison as a way to judge depth. Separate keys for forehand/backhand?

More nitpicks:
- Currently your character can move all the way off the screen. Even though you return to the court after every point, it looks kinda unprofessional for a shareware release. Maybe implement some boundary detection.
- There's a misprint in your Setup screen (the mouseover hints for "Automatically check for new version" and "Show ball trail" read the same)
- The sprite changes styles when you're using Mouse hitting

Sorry if you were aware of all this stuff already. Thanks for a great game!

-Duncan

[funkboy]

Thanks for the feedback!

If you're governing his aim with a random number, maybe it would make sense to hard-code some "shame" into his AI; make him less likely to double fault after the first fault.

Yeah, the AI needs a lot of work. I did program it to have some "shame" (I like that term!), but not enough as I've found out playing the game some. It's still too random... I'll get it fixed in a future version soon, though, along with a completely rewritten AI system that will allow me to make different personalities a little easier.

Sometimes the collision handling confused me. Are you in range when you are near the ball, but not right on top of it? The AI character can hit balls which are clearly feet away from his racket.

It's like playing real tennis: it's difficult to hit the ball when it's directly in front of you, so try and hit the ball when it's to your side, left or right. The AI hits a little too far away... that will be fixed sometime.

I like your idea of charging up with the keydown and then hitting on the keyup, but I feel like a meter would only be more confusing.

I actually tend to agree... but I haven't worked on it yet, so maybe sometime this week. Hopefully I can get a new version out this week with a number of improvements, including fixes to most of the issues mentioned in this thread.

More nitpicks:
- Currently your character can move all the way off the screen. Even though you return to the court after every point, it looks kinda unprofessional for a shareware release. Maybe implement some boundary detection.
- There's a misprint in your Setup screen (the mouseover hints for "Automatically check for new version" and "Show ball trail" read the same)
- The sprite changes styles when you're using Mouse hitting
I will note all these and try to get them fixed for the next version. The sprite change is really weird and disconcerting, even :p
When you say player can move all the way off the screen - do you mean into the walls at the edge of the screen? Sometimes the ball moves out of the screen, and I want the player to be able to follow that ball, even if it's kind of dumb to chase a ball off screen.

Sorry if you were aware of all this stuff already. Thanks for a great game!

Thanks for the great feedback and encouraging comments, along with way to improve the game! Perfect feedback in my opinion, and I'd love to hear more!

Thanks,
Karl

[DM6]

When you say player can move all the way off the screen - do you mean into the walls at the edge of the screen? Sometimes the ball moves out of the screen, and I want the player to be able to follow that ball, even if it's kind of dumb to chase a ball off screen.

I meant through the side walls. The ball always bounces off but your player can go right through, right off the screen. I agree players should be able to run freely around the court. It was the effect of the player moving through the walls where the ball couldn't go that made me scratch my head.
I'm glad my comments were helpful. Keep up the good work.
-D

[funkboy]

I meant through the side walls. The ball always bounces off but your player can go right through, right off the screen. I agree players should be able to run freely around the court. It was the effect of the player moving through the walls where the ball couldn't go that made me I'm glad my comments were helpful. Keep up the good work.
-D

Okay, thanks. I hadn't even noticed they could run through them... it's not supposed to do that, I guess I forgot to enable it.

And yes, thank you for your comments, please let me know more if you have any other thoughts.

[Carlos Camacho]

I let the image speak for me..

http://hamsterrepublic.com/img/bob_hit_james.gif

[funkboy]

That picture is great Carlos, I have to actually laugh out loud when I see it :)

And so, just for you (and everyone else), I've released 0.65 which includes the biggest improvement in quite some time: a smarter computer AI that even I have difficulty beating.

Let me know what you think of the new computer intelligence - it should be tougher, especially on professional level.

As always:
http://www.trapzero.com/Downloads/ktatennis-osx.zip
http://www.trapzero.com/Downloads/ktatennis-ppc.sit <--for Mac OS 7-9 holdovers

[funkboy]

Any comments from anyone? I could really use a guiding light from some of the forum members here, to let me know what they think could be improved/changed/whatever with the game, especially its controls.

[DM6]

funkboy,

Personally, I'm surprised no one has commented in four days since your update. But after playing the new version I suspect that due to the obvious improvements in the control system (i appreciate most the very appropriate changes in controlling swing strength) and the AI (felt like a human opponent even on Novice), bugs in KTA Tennis are becoming harder to spot. I still have problems with the AI's inability to return some balls that are headed right at him. Are you using a probability to determine how frequently he tries to hit? If so consider adding a rating system of "return difficulty" to help the AI sort out the more difficult shots he's likely to "choose" to miss. I like the amount of interaction you've managed to provide with the simple keyboard interface but I still feel like it's missing another level of contol (i couldn't tell you what specifically, just a feeling) to make it more comparable to mouse control. I like how you fixed the sound bugs; the applause does help me play better. After you polish up the sprites, if you have the memory to spare I suggest recording and using multiple takes of the soundbites "fault" "out" etc. so they stay "fresh" longer to the user. Keep up the good work!

Thanks for a great game
-Duncan

[funkboy]

funkboy,

Personally, I'm surprised no one has commented in four days since your update. But after playing the new version I suspect that due to the obvious improvements in the control system (i appreciate most the very appropriate changes in controlling swing strength) and the AI (felt like a human opponent even on Novice), bugs in KTA Tennis are becoming harder to spot.

Wow! Thanks for the really positive comments - I have actually been receiving quite a number of comments from my website's feedback form, but I wanted some feedback from developers.

I still have problems with the AI's inability to return some balls that are headed right at him. Are you using a probability to determine how frequently he tries to hit? If so consider adding a rating system of "return difficulty" to help the AI sort out the more difficult shots he's likely to "choose" to miss.

You know, I think I have a good idea of how to fix the bad returning of some balls - but I like your idea of "Return difficulty." This could be factored into the aggressiveness ranking I have for the computer player... the more aggressive, the more harder shot you may go for, since if you're intelligent you may not necessarily do that.

I like the amount of interaction you've managed to provide with the simple keyboard interface but I still feel like it's missing another level of contol (i couldn't tell you what specifically, just a feeling) to make it more comparable to mouse control.

Maybe the sharpness of hitting... maybe... I think I know your feeling, though. I'm not sure how to fix it either, though :p

I like how you fixed the sound bugs; the applause does help me play better.

Great! I just have the applause playing persistently, though... the announcer's voice and ball bounces cannot overlap still, and I want to fix that more.

After you polish up the sprites, if you have the memory to spare I suggest recording and using multiple takes of the soundbites "fault" "out" etc. so they stay "fresh" longer to the user. Keep up the good work!

A very good idea. I also hope to have player grunts and some other audio flourishes... the audio is the aspect I've paid the littlest attention to, so someday here I'll start polishing it up. I think I need to get an iMic so I can record sounds at higher quality... I can take my iBook into a quiet room and get some good yells and such with no background noise. Anyone else think that's a good solution for high-quality audio recording?

Hopefully I'll have a multiplayer-at-one-computer mode in my next version... I think I'll hold off until I have it running.

big question: Do you feel the timing of shots should be improved? As in, should it be easier to hit the ball in keyboard mode, with bigger room for error in timing the shot? That's the number one request I'm getting, so I figure I better make that change... I didn't think the timing was so hard, since the timing is very similar to what's used in Super Tennis, Tennis for Game Boy, etc. What do you think?

[DM6]

A very good idea. I also hope to have player grunts and some other audio flourishes... the audio is the aspect I've paid the littlest attention to, so someday here I'll start polishing it up. I think I need to get an iMic so I can record sounds at higher quality... I can take my iBook into a quiet room and get some good yells and such with no background noise. Anyone else think that's a good solution for high-quality audio recording?

Sound is much more my area of expertise than programming, and I hate to say I've had only disappointing experiences with Griffin's iMic. I bought one a couple years ago and returned it almost immediately. Maybe they've improved since then, but in my experience USB audio products usually suck because USB wasn't made for those kinds of transfer rates, and it takes more innovative (read: more expensive than the iMic) products to make reasonable use out of USB for audio. I can't say I'd recommend what I use (the MOTU 828, this insane $700 rackmount beast of a thing) for your purposes, but I think most anyone with a pair of ears would agree the iMic is not a quality product. For USB audio I would recommend Digidesign's M-Box, but this may still be above what you're willing to pay. Again this is based on the market about a year and a half ago, so if anyone knows that the iMic is substantially better now, please feel free to take me to school about it. ;)

big question: Do you feel the timing of shots should be improved? As in, should it be easier to hit the ball in keyboard mode, with bigger room for error in timing the shot? That's the number one request I'm getting, so I figure I better make that change... I didn't think the timing was so hard, since the timing is very similar to what's used in Super Tennis, Tennis for Game Boy, etc. What do you think?

I can hit the ball OK most of the time, but my specific complaint is that I can't infer what the rules are for hitting/missing just from playing the game. I keep thinking, "hmm maybe he wants me to hit it a certain time after it bounces, or maybe it's based on what the ball's altitude is, or maybe the distance to the ball doesn't matter, or..." etc. trying to figure out what the "system" is so I can learn to play it better. I think the problem you have to solve is limiting those unknowns to make your hit/miss scheme communicate its rules through the player's experience. Hope this helps.

-Duncan

[funkboy]

Sound is much more my area of expertise than programming, and I hate to say I've had only disappointing experiences with Griffin's iMic. [quote]

Oh yikes... I just ordered one after I posted, since I usually suffer the "maybe I should buy it, but I'll wait awhile" purchasing tendency. I decided, "I need higher quality audio, this will work fine."

I don't need huge high-quality or low-latency recording, I just need something that will allow my microphone to be in an isolated location to eliminate background noise. Low-pass filters after recording don't satisfactorily get rid of iMac machine noise, I think.

[quote]I bought one a couple years ago and returned it almost immediately. Maybe they've improved since then, but in my experience USB audio products usually suck because USB wasn't made for those kinds of transfer rates, and it takes more innovative (read: more expensive than the iMic) products to make reasonable use out of USB for audio.

Is it because there's a lag in recording? Or is it just really low-quality recording, with lots of compression to fit in over the 12 Mbps bandwidth?
I can't say I'm an audiophile... especially when I'll be compressing these sounds using some codec.

For USB audio I would recommend Digidesign's M-Box, but this may still be above what you're willing to pay. [quote]

It looks like an outstanding piece of hardware, but yes, $500 is more than I'm going to spend right now :)

If I make a large amount of money from my games, then sure, I'll pick up something like that... but I'd rather pick up a new iPod for $500 right now. If you would be interested in working on the audio for this game, or if you know of anyone who would be, please let me know!

I'll keep you updated on how the iMic works - you'll be able to hear for yourself once new sounds appear in the game next week. So long as newegg ships it to me by Friday.

[quote]I can hit the ball OK most of the time, but my specific complaint is that I can't infer what the rules are for hitting/missing just from playing the game. I keep thinking, "hmm maybe he wants me to hit it a certain time after it bounces, or maybe it's based on what the ball's altitude is, or maybe the distance to the ball doesn't matter, or..." etc. trying to figure out what the "system" is so I can learn to play it better. I think the problem you have to solve is limiting those unknowns to make your hit/miss scheme communicate its rules through the player's experience.

Hmm... well, I guess I'm going by the general rule in tennis where you should be hitting the ball when it's about chest high or so, and so it clears the net. I know what you mean, though, I think... I know how my engine works, so I know exactly which shots to take and which to avoid. If i just made all shots be more in bounds, I think I'd be better off.

Is it really annoying when you go up near the net, just tap the hit button, and then the ball goes sailing way out of bounds? I'm guessing that's what you mean when it seems like the game is using too many unknowns.

[DM6]

Is it because there's a lag in recording? Or is it just really low-quality recording, with lots of compression to fit in over the 12 Mbps bandwidth?
You hit both major problems right on the head. The a/d converters on mine were very poor (this usually showed itself in recordings lacking "presence" or "brightness", to use the vague terminology audiophiles are so fond of.) The latency issues were terrible with any buffer size. Again, Griffin has had some time since then for r&d, so maybe they're better now. Good luck finding out. ;)

It looks like an outstanding piece of hardware, but yes, $500 is more than I'm going to spend right now :)
I thought the price had gone down more than that. Yes that is a ridiculous price to pay unless you're doing recording really often. There's another solution that wasn't around when I got my Titanium. So if you have a cardbus slot on your computer and a chunk of change to spare, Echo Audio's indigo series are really good products; you probably would be most interested in the indigo IO, which goes for somethin around $175. More reasonable, but maybe still not reasonable enough.

If you would be interested in working on the audio for this game, or if you know of anyone who would be, please let me know!
I know the stock answer here is usually "i don't have time because of my other projects etc. etc." but unfortuately I am working on a rigid deadline right now or otherwise I would be glad to help. I don't know many other sound designers personally, but I just read this post in art & audio thread "the other half?" by this member named Az0167, a sound designer looking for work.

Is it really annoying when you go up near the net, just tap the hit button, and then the ball goes sailing way out of bounds? I'm guessing that's what you mean when it seems like the game is using too many unknowns.
I think giving the user the option to turn on/off key timing sensitivity would be a kind thing to do that wouldn't sacrifice the precision of your game. If on keydown you change the sprite to a backswing and then hit when it let up i think you wouldn't even need a power bar.

-Duncan

[Duane]

My long-range goal is a 3d-tennis game--not sure how that will work out. I think I will have to make up tournaments, since Wimbledon and such cost money to use. Of course, it will have many moves, and it was all inspired by KTA Tennis. And, of course, my own love of the sport. (skill is an entirely different matter)

[funkboy]

You hit both major problems right on the head. The a/d converters on mine were very poor (this usually showed itself in recordings lacking "presence" or "brightness", to use the vague terminology audiophiles are so fond of.) The latency issues were terrible with any buffer size. Again, Griffin has had some time since then for r&d, so maybe they're better now. Good luck finding out. ;)

It's in Burbank right now, hopefully will get to my house in two days!

I thought the price had gone down more than that. Yes that is a ridiculous price to pay unless you're doing recording really often. ... the indigo IO, which goes for somethin around $175. More reasonable, but maybe still not reasonable enough.

Not as bad, but I have no CardBus slots. Maybe if I get a PowerBook someday...

I know the stock answer here is usually "i don't have time because of my other projects etc. etc." but unfortuately I am working on a rigid deadline right now or otherwise I would be glad to help. I don't know many other sound designers personally, but I just read this post in art & audio thread "the other half?" by this member named Az0167, a sound designer looking for work.

No problem, I understand. I'll talk to Az - but if he's looking to get paid a bunch, I don't know if I can really do that. It'd be a good piece to add to his portfolio, though, probably.

I think giving the user the option to turn on/off key timing sensitivity would be a kind thing to do that wouldn't sacrifice the precision of your game. If on keydown you change the sprite to a backswing and then hit when it let up i think you wouldn't even need a power bar.

A good idea that I will try to implement.


My long-range goal is a 3d-tennis game--not sure how that will work out. I think I will have to make up tournaments, since Wimbledon and such cost money to use. Of course, it will have many moves, and it was all inspired by KTA Tennis. And, of course, my own love of the sport. (skill is an entirely different matter)

It would be great to see another tennis game, Nayr. Did KTA Tennis really inspire you to make a tennis game all on your own? Have you done some 3D stuff before?
The more I get into the project, the more I realize a 3D engine would be useful. However, I'm in the 2D engine now, so I'm going with it. Now to work on multiplayer!

[Duane]

I'm mainly into Cocoa at the moment, but i am looking into opengl.

[funkboy]

Wanted to report that I just got 2-players at-one-computer working today. I took some time to think about how it received key input, and I think I came up with a method that will make it very, very easy to extend to online play! I've done some initial tests, too, that indicate the latency for online play will be acceptable... but I won't know for sure until I test it out.

Tomorrow I hope to get online play running at least a little bit... however, in the mean time, if anyone wants to try out an early version of my 2-player mode, download this file:
http://www.karlbecker.com/ktatennis-osx2.zip

I don't know if I will release multiplayer internet to the world for free, as I think it's a huge selling point for the game. I think I will keep multiplayer under wraps and in beta testing with testers until I release the game for sale in August. The huge number of positive feedbacks I'm getting from my website is really helping me think that I may have a very popular game here - I just hope it stays popular when I start charging money for it, and that many people will want to purchase the game.

I almost think I have kept the game free for too long and issued too many free updates so that people will think it's "unfair" to have to pay for the game later. Hopefully not...

[funkboy]

You hit both major problems right on the head. The a/d converters on mine were very poor (this usually showed itself in recordings lacking "presence" or "brightness", to use the vague terminology audiophiles are so fond of.) The latency issues were terrible with any buffer size. Again, Griffin has had some time since then for r&d, so maybe they're better now. Good luck finding out. ;)

I must say I'm pretty pleased with the iMic. I'm using a mono microphone with it, and I think the sound from it definitely sounds different than the sound through either my iMac's microphone or the PlainTalk microphone. Overall, though, I think it's because it sounds better - I can get right up to the microphone and talk into it loudly without it going off the chart and screwing up the sound. Unfortunately, it seems a little *too* quiet...

What computer were you using your iMic with? I tried it on my iBook 500 G3 running Mac OS X 10.3.4 and FeltTip Sound Studio - FeltTip said it couldn't record at any sampling rate, it just didn't have enough processing power to do it (I imagine to decode the USB and then write it to the hard drive). My iMac, on the other hand, handles it like a champ at CD sampling rate (I didn't try any higher, heh).

New sounds will probably be coming in a new version of KTA Tennis, so you can let me know what you think of the quality.

... I just read this post in art & audio thread "the other half?" by this member named Az0167, a sound designer looking for work.

Unfortunately, this guy hasn't replied to me yet, and I can't see his email or any other contact information. If he or anyone else is interested in doing audio work for KTA Tennis, though, please contact me.