Water Tower 3D (uDG 2004 entry)

[ThemsAllTook]

Since the uDevGames blogs don't allow feedback, I figured I'd start a thread here.

Summary: Water Tower 3D is the sequel to my entry last year, Water Tower (http://www.sacredsoftware.net/software/watertower/information.html). I'm trying to keep as much of the same general feel of the original as I can, while converting to a full 3D environment. As in the original, a level editor will be included. It's still pretty early in development; I'm working hard to have a build that's actually playable by early September. Don't hold me to that date, though. :)

Here's the game in its current state: http://www.sacredsoftware.net/software/watertower3d/archives/WaterTower3D.20040822.sit

Controls are undocumented at the moment, and there's no prefs dialog to change them yet. To start a game, press Command-N on the splash screen. Command-shift-E takes you to the level editor. Most of the other things in the menus don't work yet.

In-game controls: Arrow keys to turn and move the character, space to jump, R, F, D, G, T, and B to move the camera. (Yes, I know it's awkward...)

Level editor controls: Arrow keys, A, and Z to move the block cursor. Space to place or remove a block (hold to place/remove multiple blocks). Same camera controls as gameplay.

I've just finished a major architectural change to the level system (see my blog on udevgames.com for details), so if anyone finds any bugs with the level editor or anything related to the blocks in the level, please let me know. I'd also like to know if the full screen mode works properly for everyone. (Let me know about any other bugs, too!)

Have fun. Back to coding for me...

Alex Diener

[Jake]

Looks good! I really hope the mouse will be incorporated into the final controls (looking)

[NCarter]

It works very nicely on my G5 DP2GHz. No unexpected bugs as far as I can see.

A couple of minor observations:
I'd like to be able to sidestep. This would save a lot of annoying extra manoeuvring when I (for example) miss a jump and have to go around again.

You're probably going to have to come up with a trick to hide blocks which obscure the player from view. It's very easy to add so many blocks to the level that you can't see what's going on, and since you're releasing the level editor you can't count on the levels being sparsely populated. Alternatively, how about allowing a first person view or a closer third person view?

Then again, maybe that'd turn it into Tomb Raider.... :blink:

[igame3d]

SWEET!!!! You've already won in my book due to the level editor! :p
Ok well, I'll be fair (damn) and see other entries first, but give you a special gold star.

Would be nice if your camera rotate works on mouse in editor.
Since the most of the world is used to WSAD for forward-back, strafe left right (or turn) which would work well for position blocks as well, then you can have click to place object.

Very neat.
fullscreen works fine
High scores not implimented yet (haha no kidding right? :) )

Ok level editor not working list:
save as
try level
close quits the app..you crazy man!
Command-Shift-E does not switch to editor during game
Open Level Set does nothing
New Level Set appears to do nothing
Ok just about everything in the Options menu does nothing.

Look forward to the next test! Groovy man, Groovy!

[ThemsAllTook]

It works very nicely on my G5 DP2GHz. No unexpected bugs as far as I can see.

A couple of minor observations:
I'd like to be able to sidestep. This would save a lot of annoying extra manoeuvring when I (for example) miss a jump and have to go around again.

You're probably going to have to come up with a trick to hide blocks which obscure the player from view. It's very easy to add so many blocks to the level that you can't see what's going on, and since you're releasing the level editor you can't count on the levels being sparsely populated. Alternatively, how about allowing a first person view or a closer third person view?

Then again, maybe that'd turn it into Tomb Raider.... :blink:

Way ahead of you, Neil... Every feature you just mentioned is already planned. :)

The trick I'm going to use to be able to see, when blocks are between the player and the camera, is to adjust the alpha value of the blocks. The further from the player (closer to the camera), the more transparent.

SWEET!!!! You've already won in my book due to the level editor! :p
Ok well, I'll be fair (damn) and see other entries first, but give you a special gold star.

You make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :D

Would be nice if your camera rotate works on mouse in editor.
Since the most of the world is used to WSAD for forward-back, strafe left right (or turn) which would work well for position blocks as well, then you can have click to place object.

Once I get mouse look working, I'll have to experiment with it...

close quits the app..you crazy man!

When I get around to it, it'll bring up an ask save changes dialog if you've modified a level. But I don't see any point in keeping the app running after the window has actually been closed...

Command-Shift-E does not switch to editor during game

That's intentional. Notice that the menu item is disabled during gameplay (if it isn't for you, let me know). The "Try level" feature in the editor will alleviate the need for this.

Open Level Set does nothing
New Level Set appears to do nothing
Ok just about everything in the Options menu does nothing.

Yup, most of the stuff in the menus is unimplemented at the moment. You can expect all or most of it to start working in another build or two...

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

Alex Diener

[ThemsAllTook]

Here's the first update large enough to be worth posting here.

http://www.sacredsoftware.net/software/watertower3d/archives/WaterTower3D.2004082803.tar.gz

Changes since the one posted on 08/22/2004:


I'm now using GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_NEAREST as my TEXTURE_MIN_FILTER for the floor, walls, and blocks. Everything looks much nicer, AND runs faster.
Level set saving and loading should be functional. It's largely untested, so there are likely to be bugs...
Added tool/block drawer in the level editor. You can now place 3 different block types (stone, portal, and deadly; in the drawer, they all look like the stone block at the moment), and change the player's starting position.
You can now add multiple levels to a level set. If you place the Portal block (middle block in the tool/block drawer), when the player runs into it, they will be taken to the next level.


Apparently there are some bugs when Water Tower 3D is run in Jaguar... The player seems to be invisible, and the game sometimes hangs when you start a new game. If anyone runs into these problems, let me know.

Alex Diener

[igame3d]

OK pretty good so far, can't test the level I made though.
When I first saved and tried opening it, it seemed only half of it was there, I quit and reloaded it and it was all there, but I can't play the level itself to see if its juts crap or not :)
Looked in your package for where the file might go to be the default level but couldnt find any specific spot for it



Keys are still funky, and i didn't see the "drawers" you were talking about.
Oh wait! went back in and gave it another look, now I see the drawer!
ok crashed it on saving with a second level
download WaterLevelsnCrash (http://www.igame3d.com/WT3Dlevels2.zip)

Get me user config keys Please, even if I have to edit the plist :)
crazy keys man!
and i want to try my levels :(

let me know when you need to test some more :)

[Josh]

OK pretty good so far, can't test the level I made though.Hit Command-E when you're done editing your level, and then hit Command-N. That should load the last made level.

[ThemsAllTook]

OK pretty good so far, can't test the level I made though.
When I first saved and tried opening it, it seemed only half of it was there, I quit and reloaded it and it was all there, but I can't play the level itself to see if its juts crap or not :)

Only half of it was there in what sense? The level was smaller than it should have been? Some of the blocks you placed didn't show up? If this happens again, screenshots would be helpful.

Looked in your package for where the file might go to be the default level but couldnt find any specific spot for it

Yeah, at the moment the default level is a hard-coded 5x5x5 empty grid.

Keys are still funky, and i didn't see the "drawers" you were talking about.
Oh wait! went back in and gave it another look, now I see the drawer!
ok crashed it on saving with a second level
download WaterLevelsnCrash (http://www.igame3d.com/WT3Dlevels2.zip)

Those work fine here. Crash log?

Get me user config keys Please, even if I have to edit the plist :)
crazy keys man!

I'll see what I can do for the next build.

Thanks!

Alex Diener

[codemattic]

Im really looking forward to see what kind of levels you are able to come up with for WT3D.

small request tho - resizable window.

[ThemsAllTook]

Sorry it's been so long since I posted in this thread - I've been too busy working on the game itself!

I put up a new version yesterday that finally has water in it. If you've been following my uDevGames blog, you'll know the troubles I was having with water, so I won't go into them here. I feel like this build really helps show the rough edges I need to smooth out, so I'd like some feedback on it.

http://www.sacredsoftware.net/software/watertower3d/downloads.html

Controls are in the read me (which I just noticed is a bit outdated...). I'm aware of these issues:

The camera system is very clunky. I'm planning to add a "camera hint" object that can be placed in the level editor: When the player walks over a camera hint, the camera automatically adjusts to a predefined angle. I'm hoping this will take care of the problem.
There is no application icon in that build. I created one right after I put it up, so it will be in the next one.
The levels are very unbalanced. As the developer, I have some trouble judging how difficult something will be for players. The only way I can really know is to show levels around and see people's reactions to them. (Level 2 in particular got a lot of complaints in the #idevgames IRC channel last night.)
The splash screen is, of course, a placeholder. I just got done with my widget system yesterday, and haven't had time to really put it to good use yet.
There is currently no depth sorting of transparent polygons, so there are some minor visual glitches, such as the player being obscured by transparent objects. I'm working on it.

Other than those, please let me know of any issues you run into. Have fun!

Alex Diener

[drzeip]

Loads of fun and nice levels so far but you're right about the camera system - I felt that was the hardest part about it. Would it be possible to make objects between the camera and player transparent? Or how about a 're-center' button that points the camera in the direction the player is facing.

'Camera hints' sound interesting though. Would make the game 'filmy'.

I don't think the levels are too hard it's just difficult to judge distances unless you are viewing a jump from the side. Maybe another idea would be to set the camera postion instead of the camera orientation and have it always look at the player. That way you could build your levels around the edges and have your camera in the center or even move the camera when you get to a camera hint. Problem with that is that as the camera orientation is always moving, the player would be harder to control as holding 'left' would make the player run in a circle.

Any chance of prince of persia style running where the player doesnt quite stop as soon as you let go, and also skids to a halt at ledges? That might make it too easy though.

Looking good though

David

[phydeaux]

Wow, this game is really good. In my opinion the most solid non-repetitive gameplay of any entries I've tried out so far. I apologize if people have already mentioend these things, but:

What I'd like is some indicators what the numbers on the bottom of the screen actually mean.

The water graphics don''t quite work on my system, and some z-fighting occurs. I'm sure you've been playing around with this, though. I think the vertically rising water is fine, and there's not really a need for more complicated water dynamics unless you intend to make puzzles that make use of those dynamics.

I feel like for a puzzle the concept of lives is sort of antequated, and you might as well just be able to start on whatever puzzle you want so you don't have to go through the gruelling stages that lead up to it. This is more of a philosophical discussion, though- there are obviously arguments for having lives, which is you want to try and force the player to also skillfully complete multiple levels at once. I think primarily what this depends on is the variance in what kinds of levels you have- if you have a insanely long one that requires a lot of thinking, and then another quick level that just requires insane reflexes that comes before it, you have a recipe for frustration. A good compromise might be to allow you to continue from every x stages, provided you get to the stage you'd be able to continue on.

A specific issue- I got to stage three, but before I realized the puzzle I got a key, and the water didn't seem to be rising, which meant I had to do an 'end game' which put me back at the title screen (maybe I made a mistake?) You probably have some sort of 'suicide' button? I also got a bit frustrated trying to get past level 4 because the player refused to grab on the ladders.. though this could be my fault for not being able to figure out the puzzle, heh.

[cozza]

I think it's great, so far. I don't know how far I'll play on as I'm stuck at the same level as the poster above.

'I also got a bit frustrated trying to get past level 4 because the player refused to grab on the ladders.. though this could be my fault for not being able to figure out the puzzle, heh.'

I don't know if I have the ladder jump technique right..I'm using 'jump, right arrow and q' but it seems far too hard...takes ages to even get across to one ladder.

Still - a very fine work for us puzzle lovers. I look forward to it's completion. Good luck in the competition!

[funkboy]

By the way, great job, just as fun as the first one. I beat it, but probably because I've played the first one so much. :D

[ThemsAllTook]

I don't know if I have the ladder jump technique right..I'm using 'jump, right arrow and q' but it seems far too hard...takes ages to even get across to one ladder.

When you jump off of a ladder, you get a bit of a kick-of, which pushes you away from the ladder. To grab onto the ladder again, you'll have to move toward it in the air. The action key isn't used for ladders; you simply have to come in contact with the ladder while facing the right direction. So, instead of jump, right arrow, q, you want jump, right arrow, forward.

Sorry are not replying to other comments here - too busy with the game itself!

- Alex Diener

[Chronosv2]

Hey there, just one of the many people playing Water Tower 3D!
I'd like to thank you for the work you've done. This game is simply incredible. The game is very enjoyable, and the level editor makes the game even better (I'm rather partial to level editors :p).

Keep up the good work, and I look forward to seeing more of it!
-Kevin S.

[Chronosv2]

Also, it'd be cool if the level editor had a bit more detail on what the new things do, for example teleporters have 2 numbers (ID and destination I presume), and phase blocks...well, I can't seem to figure those out. What do the sliders mean?The rest makes sense, though--this is shaping up to be an excellent game!

[ThemsAllTook]

Also, it'd be cool if the level editor had a bit more detail on what the new things do, for example teleporters have 2 numbers (ID and destination I presume), and phase blocks...well, I can't seem to figure those out. What do the sliders mean?

Yeah, sorry about that... I was in a rush to get that version done, and I didn't bother to add labels to the sliders and such. Good job figuring out how it works for the teleports!

The meaning of the sliders on the phasing blocks, from top to bottom: Initial delay, On interval, Off interval. You'll probably just have to play with them to figure out how those values affect their behavior. It's kind of a pain at the moment, as the sliders don't give you much precision, and don't display their values. You just sort of have to eyeball it.

Undocumented feature: Hold shift while dragging a slider to move the slider at 10x precision. Hold option for 100x precision. Hold both option and shift for 1000x precision.

The rest makes sense, though--this is shaping up to be an excellent game!

Thanks! Hearing this sort of feedback is always encouraging. Now that the contest is over, work on the game hasn't been progressing quite as rapidly, but I am still plodding along. I plan to implement a lot of the features I originally wanted to have by the end of the contest, and release a big update, perhaps in a month or so. Smaller, incremental updates can get boring after a while... Large updates spaced out over a longer period of time tend to be more exciting.

I still need to figure out whether or not I want to release the finished game as shareware. This would imply that releases up until that point would be to a closed group of beta testers. If I go that direction, I'd be happy to have you in that group!

- Alex Diener

[Chronosv2]

That would be very cool--thanks!

Also, thank you very much for the phasing block instructions. I've not gotten it down to the point where my blocks are synchronous, but they work well enough to let me complete a play test of the level (in a set I'm making just to practice using the new features)

All in all I'd have to say this is one of the coolest games I've ever gotten my hands on for the Mac.