A couple of (scary) threads on shareware sales...

[sealfin]

I don't know how many people here read the programming forums at YakYak.org (http://www.yakyak.org/viewforum.php?f=20) (I don't, except when bored), but there are couple of pretty scary threads on sales of shareware here (http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=12475&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0), and here (http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=23318&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0). Particularly shocking to hear that Pom Pom (http://www.pompomgames.com/), Edge's hardcore gamer poster child, are doing badly... so I thought I'd share them with anybody else considering entering the shareware market immanently, like myself :???:

[FCCovett]

Few shareware developers are doing well. Island Mini-Golf (http://www.danlabgames.com) is a best-seller, for example, and it's Mac-only. Dexterity and GameHouse seem to do well, but they are much larger studios (10 to 20 people).

As a shareware developer, you'll probably make more money developing some utilitarian application than a game.

[jamie]

I'm curious if you can say, what makes a 'best seller' for danlab games? I'm wondering what the sales figures are....

[skyhawk]

I'm curious if you can say, what makes a 'best seller' for danlab games? I'm wondering what the sales figures are....
a lot

[jamie]

well not exactly what I was looking for but anyway great news for danlab! :)

[codemattic]

love pompom - bought both their games - especially love Mutant Storm because I am such a Robotron nut. Mutant Storm is a really great arcade game and very well executed by PomPom IMO. I think the level/monster design is very well done. Lots of eye-candy. Fun! However... arcade-twitch games are just not that popular *and* Mutant Storm really needs a dual-analog controller to play it. They have some other control options - but to really have fun you need the da controller. Most PC gamers use keyboard and mouse. So I really feel PomPom's pain - but I cant say Im surprised.

That said - I wish we did have more concrete numbers on how many registrations a successful Mac shareware game or utility gets (Windows and Linux too!). However I can sorta see the reasons a developer would want to keep that info secret. Like maybe the more people see you as being successful - the more willing they will be to pirate instead of purchase your wares - "oh - I heard that developer already got 1,000 registrations - so one more isnt going to make a difference - Ill just d/l a serial from the pirate bbs."

Also - most shareware is just sooo bad and overpriced. I think many developers are in love with their work and cant see it objectively and dont see just how un-registration-worthy their little app is. Even with a good product - there are still so many other factors you have to get right. A flawless ordering process - good support - an attractive website (again - most of them are horrid). Many times I go to download someone's shareware and it wont download b/c theyve exceeded their transfer limit on their geocities website or something. Its a lot to get right.

Also - since most shareware is so bad - most shareware doesnt get downloaded. You probably cant put out just one good game. You have to keep putting out quality games and get potential customers used to you. DanLab puts out a game and everybody goes to download it on the strength of all his other games theyve come across (I know I do!) - same thing for Ambrosia, Freeverse, etc... But if you put out a killer game - and dont advertise - or get reviewed somewhere prominent - you arent going to get it downloaded by the same numbers of potential customers.

Or maybe its just almost completely hopeless - and you need to develop your wares because its challenging and interesting and fun and you need to get it out of your head and on to the screen - and any regs you get on top of that is gravy!

happy coding,
Codemattic

[aarku]

http://www.idevgames.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2672

-Jon

[codemattic]

The Alien Flux guy made many execution mistakes. I remember dling AF - and it was a good arcade game (see my note about arcade games above tho).

But - the *demo* was unplayable - you could only *watch* it. WTF? Right in the trash.

It was written in Java - which meant it had small but annoying hiccups - and wasnt playable on some slower machines (where if it was written in C it would of ran fine)

Since it was Java - many Windows customers would of had to download and install an additional Java Virtual Machine.

It apparently 'phoned home' information about itself to his server. Maybe he got good info out of that - but maybe it freaked potential customers out.

Again - it was a good game - but there is more to getting regs than a good game - you need to make the whole downloading/installing/testing/paying/supporting experience smooth.

[Jake]

Few shareware developers are doing well. Island Mini-Golf (http://www.danlabgames.com) is a best-seller, for example, and it's Mac-only. Dexterity and GameHouse seem to do well, but they are much larger studios (10 to 20 people).

As a shareware developer, you'll probably make more money developing some utilitarian application than a game.

I am curious to know how many copies he has sold.

If anyone doubts the teenage shareware developer, GL Golf has sold 260 copies @ 15.00 and 100 copies of the course pack at 10.00, and over 130 copies of Escape with 50 or so expansion registrations. Anyone else care to share?

[blobbo]

holy crap, jake! that's a great income!

I'm inspired. I'm trying desperately to come up with a great puzzle game idea.

[DaFalcon]

Uhm, Snake Quest has had over 100,000 downloads (in four years, with about 11 updates in that time) and had 55 people bother to register for the forum. Er, and its a free game so with all that we've had zero sales :-)

[DaFalcon]

Those threads may have some depressing thoughts, but the upside for Mac OS:

According to GarageGames, 65% of their sales are for the Mac while 7% are for Linux (and so only 28% of sales are on Windows). They won't publish a game unless there are versions for OS X and Windows.

[codemattic]

DaFalcon - where was that GarageGames quote from?

And YES - oh god yes - we are all ready for Midnight Mansion. Ive been ready forever now - tell Vern we are ready. Ready ready ready.

[Max]

Pac the Man 2 -> 250,000 downloads in one year! The game was even reviewed on TechTV! Hehehe! Too bad itís free... just imagine one buck for each download...
:wow:

My first project, Cave Dig 3, got about 300 registrations, $15 a registration. Thatís not so bad. With the money, I replaced my broken mouse and bought a GameCube.
:)

[DaFalcon]

DaFalcon - where was that GarageGames quote from?

It is from the second post in this (http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=23318&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) thread.

And YES - oh god yes - we are all ready for Midnight Mansion. Ive been ready forever now - tell Vern we are ready. Ready ready ready.

LOL! Good :-) I wish I had more experience hawking a Shareware game because I want to make sure this gets in the hands of reviewers everywhere when it is released ... I think it is a really great game, and an amazing value. BTW, your comments have been forwarded to Vern :-) With luck, the game is mere weeks from release (after years of development and refinement!!!!!)

[radiance]

there are couple of pretty scary threads on sales of shareware here (http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=12475&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0), and here (http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=23318&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0). Particularly shocking to hear that Pom Pom (http://www.pompomgames.com/), Edge's hardcore gamer poster child, are doing badly... so I thought I'd share them with anybody else considering entering the shareware market immanently, like myself :???:

I didn't see any mention of PomPom doing badly in those threads, just one person commenting that they had heard that PomPom only started doing well once they hooked up with GarageGames.

Most of the one thread was regarding Alien Flux, which seems to be a poster child for games that look like they should be doing well, but don't. The problems Alien Flux has had selling were discussed to death in the (now defunct) Dexterity indie forums. Overall I would use Alien Flux as a cautionary tale but wouldn't let it deter anyone from seriously attempting to make and sell a great game. Yes it's possible and maybe even likely that your first game will "fail", but you shouldn't let that stop you unless you need a 100% guarantee that you'll make a multiple of $10,000.

[igame3d]

Well you know the old entertainment business saying "Don't quit your day job".

Shareware developers certainly must realise that they are competing with PC market, Mac market, console buy or rent it market, and mobile phone/game device market, and even linux.

Its no longer a this os vs that os vs NES world.

There's another old saying "If you are only in this for the money, you are in the wrong business, sell real estate instead"

[codemattic]

on Pom Pom's messageboards the developers definitely talked about being extremely disappointed and discouraged regarding their sales. I dont know if sales picked up after switching to GarageGames as their distributer. The thing is - I dont know how much GarageGames would help. I dont remember them ever featured very prominently on the GG website. GG didnt distribute it in any stores - or advertise anywhere that I could tell. Im not sure how many extra downloads PP was able to get by distributing with GG.

[FCCovett]

If you Mac game is any good, submitting it to Apple alone will give you decent exposure.

[ChrisD]

The Alien Flux guy made many execution mistakes. I remember dling AF - and it was a good arcade game (see my note about arcade games above tho).

But - the *demo* was unplayable - you could only *watch* it. WTF? Right in the trash.


I believe it was done as a grand experiment.
He wanted to try somthing different...
Thinking maybe that a lot of people played demos and got enouh of the game
and thus never bought more.... somthing along those lines.


It was written in Java - which meant it had small but annoying hiccups - and wasnt playable on some slower machines (where if it was written in C it would of ran fine)

Since it was Java - many Windows customers would of had to download and install an additional Java Virtual Machine.


It actually Java + OpenGL and I think Open AL
On PC I believe he embedded a simple VM with the app its self.
So no separate download.

Now based on the above java talking directly tp hardware APIs runs at like 95% of the speed of C++ these days.

Sometimes Java is faster then C++ sometimes its not... depends on teh JIT and APIs
being used.

There are engines out in Java + Open GL now that can run Q3 levels at hundreds of FPS.


It apparently 'phoned home' information about itself to his server. Maybe he got good info out of that - but maybe it freaked potential customers out.


I think most casual customers would have no idea.
I know mac sharewear titles that do that also.
And the uses buying the games just have no idea by and large.


Again - it was a good game - but there is more to getting regs than a good game - you need to make the whole downloading/installing/testing/paying/supporting experience smooth.

Hmm proof?
Did the author ever post teh results of his experince?
On the java messages boards he very happy with working in java as Is not planning on switching back to C++.

As for his sales???

[ChrisD]

The problems Alien Flux has had selling were discussed to death in the (now defunct) Dexterity indie forums. .

Damn I missed that thread...

Anyone know why the indie forums are no more?

I went there last week and was like WTF???
It was such a good board.

[Jake]

Damn I missed that thread...

Anyone know why the indie forums are no more?

I went there last week and was like WTF???
It was such a good board.

http://forums.indiegamer.com/

[codemattic]

Chris,

>>
I believe it was done as a grand experiment.
He wanted to try somthing different...
Thinking maybe that a lot of people played demos and got enouh of the game
and thus never bought more.... somthing along those lines.
Did the author ever post teh results of his experince?
On the java messages boards he very happy with working in java as Is not planning on switching back to C++.
<<

Ill have to search through the indiegamer and yakyak forums - but I remember him posting that he was surprised by the lack of registrations he was getting. I wasnt trying to be mean - but was trying to figure out the factors involved.


>>
It actually Java + OpenGL and I think Open AL
On PC I believe he embedded a simple VM with the app its self.
So no separate download.
Now based on the above java talking directly tp hardware APIs runs at like 95% of the speed of C++ these days.
<<

The reason I disparage Java in this case is that I compared this game to PomPom's Mutant Storm which I love. Both are robotron type fast action arcade games. Both have lots of eyecandy. Both use OpenGL. MS ran smoothly and flawlessly on my low-end Mac (G4/400 Rage128). AF ran so poorly I immediately threw it out in frustration. The biggest difference to me is that one was written in C++ and one in Java - so I decided the limiting factor was Java.

Im not anti-Java at all. Its just for twitch arcade games I dont think it makes sense. For applications or for a game with a lot of networking or that should run in the browser Java starts to make more sense. But except for garbage collection it doesnt seem like you gain anything going Java/OpenGL/OpenAL vs C++/OpenGL/OpenAL.


>>
Sometimes Java is faster then C++ sometimes its not... depends on teh JIT and APIs
being used.
<<

do you have two sourecode examples (one Java, one C++) that do the same non-trivial thing where the Java runs faster?


>>
>>>>
Again - it was a good game - but there is more to getting regs than a good game - you need to make the whole downloading/installing/testing/paying/supporting experience smooth.
<<<<

Hmm proof?
<<

are you saying you disagree that the other aspects of a shareware business (beyond just the quality of your wares) have a big effect on sales? Mostly I believe this to be true from reading the different shareware bbs and articles like those on dexterity.

[ChrisD]

>Ill have to search through the indiegamer and yakyak forums - but I remember him >posting that he was surprised by the lack of registrations he was getting. I wasnt >rying to be mean - but was trying to figure out the factors involved.


Ok

>>
It actually Java + OpenGL and I think Open AL
On PC I believe he embedded a simple VM with the app its self.
So no separate download.
Now based on the above java talking directly tp hardware APIs runs at like 95% of the speed of C++ these days.
<<


The reason I disparage Java in this case is that I compared this game to PomPom's Mutant Storm which I love. Both are robotron type fast action arcade games. Both have lots of eyecandy. Both use OpenGL. MS ran smoothly and flawlessly on my low-end Mac (G4/400 Rage128). AF ran so poorly I immediately threw it out in frustration. The biggest difference to me is that one was written in C++ and one in Java - so I decided the limiting factor was Java.


I agree you here.
Also Java could be the the limiting factor. Shrug don't know.
I wonder if java has throuble on that older hardware tho really for the game it was in it should have been fast enough.
Heck that whole game could have been written in a scripting engine + GL and should have been fast enough on that hardware.
So it might be somthing else.


Im not anti-Java at all. Its just for twitch arcade games I dont think it makes sense. For applications or for a game with a lot of networking or that should run in the browser Java starts to make more sense. But except for garbage collection it doesnt seem like you gain anything going Java/OpenGL/OpenAL vs C++/OpenGL/OpenAL.


It can be faster to develope in.
Code modules can be a bit more dynamic.
You get a consitant API for sockets, threads etc.

Umm but reallt for a good C++ programmer that might not be much of a game.
If I was more of a beginner it might be great.


>>
Sometimes Java is faster then C++ sometimes its not... depends on teh JIT and APIs
being used.
<<

do you have two sourecode examples (one Java, one C++) that do the same non-trivial thing where the Java runs faster?


I don't have code I hace tested.
There current bench marks around the net.

Ok here

Q2 in JAVA + GL + AL

http://www.bytonic.de/index.html

and a Q3 engine in java

http://home.halden.net/tombr/squareheads/squareheads.html

Some neat java notes...
Lets not fight over them.

http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html


Again - it was a good game - but there is more to getting regs than a good game - you need to make the whole downloading/installing/testing/paying/supporting experience smooth.

are you saying you disagree that the other aspects of a shareware business (beyond just the quality of your wares) have a big effect on sales? Mostly I believe this to be true from reading the different shareware bbs and articles like those on dexterity.

Hmm from what I have seen on the Mac side of things over the years.
I think quality of the game... mostly FUN... is more important then the marketting.
Tho I usually treat marketting as important at the game.
What I mean is that all the marketting in the world does not save a game.
But a great game can save bad marketting.