Attention low-end G4 owners

[Carlos Camacho]

If you're like me, and own a low-end G4 (AGP model myself), then I'm sure you have thought about a bit faster speed in the past. Although some people are against CPU upgrades, it helped me squeeze a bit more life of my last machine (6100), so I have no regrets. (My machine also has 1GB RAM, and a SATA card as well.)

Anyhow, OWC has a sale (http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Page.cfm?Parent=908&Title=OWC%20Mercury%20Processors&Template=)
on their OWC Mercury Extreme upgrades. (G4/933MHz-1GHz with 2MB L3 Cache for PowerMac G4 AGP Graphics/Sawtooth, Gigabit Ethernet, Digital Audio & Quicksilver Models.) for $229. I think that price is pretty attractive. Going from 400MHz to around 1GHz should be a nice bump in speed -- though I realize it isn't near a G5, nor am I helping the other "slow" parts of my system. They also have a card@1.2GHz with 2MB L3 Cache for $299, but I'm not sure if it is worth the extra $$. BTW, from my research into upgrade cards some time ago, these cards are better than Sonnet's, Giga, and PowerLogix.

Cheers,

[OneSadCookie]

Remember, for G4s at least, cache trumps MHz.

[AnotherJake]

CPU upgrades are great if you wait long enough for the prices to go down. OWC seems to have a pretty good reputation for delivering. I did an OWC upgrade from a B&W G3 300 to a G4 500 and have been very pleased with it for my backup machine. The installation was pretty straight-forward and the price was like $150 or something like that. Hard to beat OWC for processor upgrades I would say.

[Carlos Camacho]

OSC, how does 2MB L3 Cache sound? I'm not aware of anything larger than that on any upgrade card. Though I could be wrong.

>CPU upgrades are great if you wait long enough for the prices to go down.
I seem to recall this card going for $299 or more. I can't really see this card going down any further. Maybe $199 at the most. But by then, they will probably kill of the 1GHz model, and make the next GHz model take its place.

Anyhow, I'm wondering if anyone has taken up this offer or went from 400MHz to about 1GHz. I'm also wondering if 1.2GHz is a noticeableÂ*differnce over 1GHz?

[OneSadCookie]

2MB L3 is great; how much L2 does it have?

I was just saying, the difference between 933 and 1GHz probably isn't noticeable, but the difference between a 933 with no L3 and a 933 with 2MB L3 is extraordinary (probably feels 3x as fast).

[codemattic]

anyway to make a low-end G4 support Quartz Express and/or Core Image?

[psyba]

Get an AGP graphics card with 32mb+ or use http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/16006 and get a PCI graphics card with 32mb+ (I believe this software can enable it for 16mb, but recommended is 32mb)

[skyhawk]

anyway to make a low-end G4 support Quartz Express and/or Core Image?
for QE: stick in a graphics card with 32MB+ of VRAM
for Core Image: stick in anything with support for pixel shaders

[Jake]

2MB L3 is great; how much L2 does it have?

I was just saying, the difference between 933 and 1GHz probably isn't noticeable, but the difference between a 933 with no L3 and a 933 with 2MB L3 is extraordinary (probably feels 3x as fast).

I know that L3 is important, but 3X!?? Can you give me an example of even 2X?

[kelvin]

anyway to make a low-end G4 support Quartz Express and/or Core Image?Ah... freudian wishful thinking? I too hope Apple moves to PCI-Express x16(or x20) (it's "Quartz Extreme" btw).

Reply (http://www.idevgames.com/forum/showthread.php?p=73424#post73424).

[OneSadCookie]

Jake: I had these computers which I used at the same time for a while:

G4 QuickSilver 733
no L3
1.2GB RAM
128MB Radeon 9800

G4 MDD 2x867
1MB L3
256MB RAM
32MB GeForce 4MX

In daily use, the 867 felt easily 2x as fast as the 733. Certainly, UT2k3 was unplayable on the 733 (~16fps) and fine on the 867 (~40fps) despite the RAM and video card differences.

I used the CHUD control panel to turn off one CPU on the 867 for comparison. The 867 felt very little different to use. Turning off the L3 cache made it feel like the 733 (even with the second processor reactivated).

3x is just a guess, based on my experiences. Notice I also said "feel", which is not the same as "be", and of course it also depends on the task you're performing.

The G4 processors themselves are reasonably fast; they're just crippled by poor memory bandwidth. Remember, the CPU can't even take advantage of the extra bandwidth the DDR memory in the MDD machines theoretically provides.

[Carlos Camacho]

OSC, here are more specs from the card...
* Motorola PowerPC G4 7455A Processor rated at 933MHz
* 256K of 1:1 L2 Cache On-Chip
* 2MB of SPB SDR L3 Cache @ up to 250MHz (4:1)

codemattic, look at the ATI 9600 thread, which is also pointing to an OWC sale.
I assume this card has no trouble with Core Image?

[OneSadCookie]

CoreImage (and Quartz 2D Extreme) are rumored to require a 64MB GeForce FX or Radeon 9600.

[Shivers]

I recently upgraded my 450 DP G4 to a 1.3GHz G4 with 2MB L3. I used a Gigadesign's card, which I do recommend, though I have not tried OWC. The speed increase is phenomonal. Not only does it just feel a lot more responsive, but this old old G4 can run every game I've tried on it with most of the graphic settings turned on. That includes UT2k4 and Halo. I'm sticking with this computer for at least another few years.

[Carlos Camacho]

Stock video card, or new one Shivers? So you went from a dual to a single which is clocked higher. Interesting. I had my eye on Giga, but (a) they stopped marketing their lower end cards (b) they are in a legal case with PowerLogix.

[Shivers]

I have a Radeon 9000 with 64 megs of VRAM in there right now. It came with an ATI Rage 128.

About the Dual to Single transition, the Dual never ran as fast as one thinks that two processors might. Certainly not twice as fast. The way the architecture works, only select few applications will ever run both processors so I was, for the most part, only getting 450 Mhz out of the machine. Considering the jump was 850 Mhz, the Dual processor certainly is not even close to the 1.3 Ghz single.

Also, the installation for the Gigadesigns processor was quite simple, so if need be, I can pretty easily swap back in the 450 DP (though I don't know why I would have to).

[DoG]

I'm also still stuck with a G4/400 with a GF2MX. If anyone has stuff for sale in the area of video cards or CPU upgrades, I'm all ears.

[Jake]

Jake: I had these computers which I used at the same time for a while:

G4 QuickSilver 733
no L3
1.2GB RAM
128MB Radeon 9800

G4 MDD 2x867
1MB L3
256MB RAM
32MB GeForce 4MX

In daily use, the 867 felt easily 2x as fast as the 733. Certainly, UT2k3 was unplayable on the 733 (~16fps) and fine on the 867 (~40fps) despite the RAM and video card differences.

I used the CHUD control panel to turn off one CPU on the 867 for comparison. The 867 felt very little different to use. Turning off the L3 cache made it feel like the 733 (even with the second processor reactivated).

3x is just a guess, based on my experiences. Notice I also said "feel", which is not the same as "be", and of course it also depends on the task you're performing.

The G4 processors themselves are reasonably fast; they're just crippled by poor memory bandwidth. Remember, the CPU can't even take advantage of the extra bandwidth the DDR memory in the MDD machines theoretically provides.

What about my iBook (New 1GHZ G4), does it take advantage of the DDR Bus? Do Powerbooks have L3 Cache?

[OneSadCookie]

What about my iBook (New 1GHZ G4), does it take advantage of the DDR Bus? Do Powerbooks have L3 Cache?

No G4s take advantage of DDR yet. The new FreeScale ones may, but it's looking increasingly likely the G5'll get into laptops before them...

Some PowerBooks have L3, some don't. Read the specs.

A lot of the newer G4s have 512K of L2 cache, as opposed to the more traditional 256K (and in lieu of a lack of L3). I haven't used these machines to know how the speed compares.

[Jake]

Thats what I though. My iBook has 512kb of lv2 cache, that is probably a pretty big boost.

[kberg]

Same situation, single processor 533. Came with a rage 128 pro, upgraded to an Radeon 8500 which has been great excepting the no pixel shader support. I've been considering an CPU upgrade to a 1.2ish level and so I'm certainly interested in peoples experiences.

[Steven]

Sorry to resuscitate this thread, but it seemed to be the most appropriate place to ask this:
1) I have an upgraded video card - if I get a processor upgrade will it still work?
2) Is this a good deal, and is Sonnet a fairly reliable company?
http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail.asp?dpno=540876
3) My Sawtooth G4, because it has AGP graphics, should fall under the "PowerMac G4 AGP Graphics" compatibility requirement, right? (Sounds silly, but there might be a specific line called the AGP Graphics line :p )

It has 256K L2 cache and 2MB L3, is that enough to prevent 'OSC QS733 Syndrome?'

Thanks for any information,
Steven

[Carlos Camacho]

I think that it is interesting that now the 1GHz cards are in the low $200s. And last week, some 1.6GHz or around that figure, cards were announced for about $400.

Steven, you won't have any problems with a CPU upgrade in a machine with a new video card. Make sure everything is running cool in your machine though. :D

(I replaced my case fan and PS fans for better cooling and less noise. I also made it so the case fan had better airflow, by cutting out the inside of the case. :D )

I have owned a Sonnet Product, and it was fine. With the upgrade you are looking at, you need to re-use your current CPU's heatsink.

With this one:
http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm?ID=7307&Item=OWCMEG40910L2S

OWC Mercury, which sells for $229, it features its own heatsink. & fan. (ie better cooling)
Faster install.

The OWC page has some links to 3rd party reviews. Please read them.
Both cards have 2MB L3 cache.
Sonnect is a Motorola PowerPC G4 745x processor
3yr warranties on both

BTW, OWC has the same price on the Sonnect as MacMall.

Bottomline, I think with these two cards, it is a matter of the heatsink. Nothing else seems much of a difference. From what I understand a PowerPC is nothing like a x86 CPU in that it needs a fan/heatsink bigger than your head. So, not sure if the OWC fan is even needed, but I suppose it can't hurt.

Anyhow, please but one of them so you can report to me, and the other Sawtooth owners. :D

Cheers

[AnotherJake]

When heat starts becoming a problem, don't forget to use a thin coating of thermal grease between the heatsink and the processor as that really helps out heat conduction between the two. It comes in an itty-bitty tube that you can pick up at your local Radio Shack or similar electronics store.

[Steven]

The OWC card seems very nice - I think I'll ask for it for the holidays :)
The reviews seemed very positive, so hopefully all will go well...

It's all go, pending approval of my dad...

[Carlos Camacho]

Tell your Dad to approve it so then my wife can approve mine.

:D

[Carlos Camacho]

Steven,

Did you get this for Xmas? If so, please report!

[Steven]

Ordered it yesterday, should arrive in just a few days. I'll tell all then!

[Carlos Camacho]

Yeah! Cool. Please run some bench marks now.. and then after you install the card. You got the OWC model?

[Steven]

Here's the "before" with XBench:
Results 62.64

System Info
Xbench Version 1.1.3
System Version 10.3.7 (7S215)
Physical RAM 768 MB
Model PowerMac3,1
Processor PowerPC G4 @ 450 MHz
Version 7400 (Max) v2.8
L1 Cache 32K (instruction), 32K (data)
L2 Cache 1024K @ 225 MHz
Bus Frequency 100 MHz
Video Card GeForce3
Drive Type WDC WD800JB-00ETA0


CPU Test 52.05
GCD Loop 47.54 1.86 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic 66.70 241.20 Mflop/sec
AltiVec Basic 36.62 1.06 Gflop/sec
vecLib FFT 48.60 754.49 Mflop/sec
Floating Point Library 82.32 3.30 Mops/sec


Thread Test 41.05
Computation 28.33 382.52 Kops/sec, 4 threads
Lock Contention 74.45 934.61 Klocks/sec, 4 threads


Memory Test 71.55
System 70.27
Allocate 259.65 169.37 Kalloc/sec
Fill 58.68 467.13 MB/sec
Copy 45.87 229.37 MB/sec
Stream 72.87
Copy 73.60 538.01 MB/sec [altivec]
Scale 74.43 549.28 MB/sec [altivec]
Add 70.59 451.75 MB/sec [altivec]
Triad 72.97 445.86 MB/sec [altivec]


Quartz Graphics Test 73.70
Line 63.19 1.61 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
Rectangle 66.40 4.67 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
Circle 64.90 1.50 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
Bezier 72.93 792.46 beziers/sec [50% alpha]
Text 127.60 2.08 Kchars/sec


OpenGL Graphics Test 54.53
Spinning Squares 54.53 38.16 frames/sec


User Interface Test 99.89
Elements 99.89 32.13 refresh/sec


Disk Test 81.40
Sequential 82.44
Uncached Write 87.28 36.38 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 80.71 33.05 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 81.56 12.91 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 80.55 32.55 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 80.40
Uncached Write 67.01 1.01 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 85.47 19.28 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 84.64 0.56 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 88.38 18.19 MB/sec [256K blocks]

[Steven]

It finally arrived, no thanks to UPS :mad:
Ground shipping is soooo sloooow...

Beginning the install now...

[Steven]

Installation was a snap, just pop out the old one and pop in the new one. They even give you a screwdriver with it so that you don't have to go fiddling for one! These guys are great.

[Steven]

Looks a lot faster, and feels so too. Assuming there's no more issues, I'm completely happy and would recommend OWC to anyone who was in this market :)


Results 89.79

System Info
Xbench Version 1.1.3
System Version 10.3.7 (7S215)
Physical RAM 768 MB
Model PowerMac3,1
Processor PowerPC G4 @ 1.00 GHz
Version 7455 (Apollo) v2.1
L1 Cache 32K (instruction), 32K (data)
L2 Cache 256K @ 500 MHz
L3 Cache 2048K @ 250 MHz
Bus Frequency 100 MHz
Video Card GeForce3
Drive Type WDC WD800JB-00ETA0

CPU Test 114.39
GCD Loop 103.69 4.05 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic 111.86 404.54 Mflop/sec
AltiVec Basic 121.76 3.54 Gflop/sec
vecLib FFT 123.04 1.91 Gflop/sec
Floating Point Library 113.81 4.56 Mops/sec

Thread Test 86.47
Computation 62.03 837.41 Kops/sec, 4 threads
Lock Contention 142.67 1.79 Mlocks/sec, 4 threads

Memory Test 92.06
System 132.89
Allocate 650.67 424.43 Kalloc/sec
Fill 190.03 1512.68 MB/sec
Copy 63.39 316.95 MB/sec
Stream 70.42
Copy 73.78 539.30 MB/sec [altivec]
Scale 63.99 472.23 MB/sec [altivec]
Add 71.18 455.54 MB/sec [altivec]
Triad 73.70 450.33 MB/sec [altivec]

Quartz Graphics Test 120.51
Line 105.14 2.68 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
Rectangle 103.26 7.26 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
Circle 113.08 2.61 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
Bezier 118.71 1.29 Kbeziers/sec [50% alpha]
Text 198.96 3.24 Kchars/sec

OpenGL Graphics Test 63.65
Spinning Squares 63.65 44.54 frames/sec

User Interface Test 121.05
Elements 121.05 38.93 refresh/sec

Disk Test 68.88
Sequential 66.02
Uncached Write 83.37 34.75 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 77.62 31.79 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 45.16 7.15 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 73.70 29.78 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 72.00
Uncached Write 69.79 1.05 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Write 87.65 19.77 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Read 59.78 0.39 MB/sec [4K blocks]
Uncached Read 76.42 15.73 MB/sec [256K blocks]

[Carlos Camacho]

Great to hear. From your data, it seems like your system is about twice as fast. Can you tell me the exact card you got?

Thanks,

[Steven]

Great to hear. From your data, it seems like your system is about twice as fast. Can you tell me the exact card you got?

Thanks,
I got the cheapest one - $229 I think, OWCMEG40910L2S I believe.

Now I'm having trouble - gcc keeps segfaulting on me. Kernel compile, regular software- doesn't matter. So far I've tried a few packages, none have finished. It complains of an internal compiler error on a random file - I can recompile and it'll fail again on a different file. Any explanation other than the CPU?

[Steven]

By reducing the clockspeed to 900MHz (down from 1GHz) it seems to work reliably now. I did not overclock it myself - it came like that from the factory. Must just be a borderline chip... :/

But at least it works now.

[Zwilnik]

What speed was the chip actually sold to you as ?

[Carlos Camacho]

Let's see if we can get you some help. See...

http://forums.dealmac.com/read.php?1,2044557

[Steven]

It was sold to me as "Guaranteed to 1GHz." Thanks, Carlos, for starting that. I filed a support ticket a few days ago but didn't know about the forum - apparently its a lot faster than the support lines ;)

It's been two days since I contacted them, I'll give them a few more before filing again. From the forum post, they seem to be nice people... thanks again, Carlos..

[Shivers]

I don't know if perhaps this yours is just a dud, but I would still like to voice my support for my Gigadesigns processor. I bought it as a 1.2ghz CPU and it can be overclocked to 1.4 (I have it at 1.3 now) with no loss in stability. It has a nice 2 mb l2 cache and hasn't failed me yet.

[Carlos Camacho]

Gigadesigns processor did in fact look nice, but they stop selling low-end cards now. So it pretty much is OWC or Sonnet for under $250.

Cheers,

[Duane]

If you're like me, and own a low-end G4 (AGP model myself), then I'm sure you have thought about a bit faster speed in the past.

lol. I have a high-end imac G3, which goes at a snail-speed of 600mhz when at top speed. :cry:

[Carlos Camacho]

In case anyone wants to upgrade their graphic card on G4 machines, ATI lowered the price of their 9000 model today. This is the lowest price now:

http://www.clubmac.com/clubmac/shop/detail.asp?store=clubmac&dpno=406049&source=CWBCNET&adcampaign=email,CWBCNET

But I expect it to go down more because of ATI's recent announcement.

Keep in mind though that new CPU+ new GPU ALMOST is 1/2 the price of rumoured headless iMac in price. I'm waiting to see what happens at MacExpo before I get that card Steve.

p.s. One upgrade which I thought was worth doing on my G4 was getting a SATA card. I bought a SATA HD to go with it. Much more speedier than the built-in IDE. For my old IDE based HD, I picked up a little bridge connected from IDE to SATA. Works like a charm and that drive also hums. :D

Cheers,

[DoG]

I have a SCSI card in my G4, and that is sure as hell faster than the lame ATA-33 bus the Sawtooth's have built-in.

[Shivers]

On my Gigabit Ethernet machine (upgraded to 1.3 GHz, 512 ram) I have a Radeon 9000 with 64 mb of VRAM. How much of an increase in performance will the Radeon 9000 with 128 mb deliver? How about the Radeon 9800?

[Steven]

Resurrected from the dead! I'm starting to have my processor upgrade flake out (I think) - random GCC segfaults and every once in a while a process dies randomly. I've emailed OWC, and they seem to have the worst email turnaround time I've ever seen - it's been almost a week now I think...

I guess the bright side is that now I can collect core dumps at twice the speed of my old processor! :D

[Carlos Camacho]

Sorry to hear that.

[Carlos Camacho]

New upgrade deal for G4 users at OWC:
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/add/5505/PLGPF55SA09002M/

PowerLogix PowerForce55 G4/900MHz with 2MB L3 for PowerMac G4 AGP Graphics/Sawtooth* & Gigabit Ethernet. Plug & Play, Heatsink Pre-attached. 30 Day 100% Money Back Guarantee, 1yr OWC/PowerLogix Warranty. *Requires Uni-N 7 or later Sawtooth* EOL.
Not sure what that * refers to. Justin? Anyone?

More info is here on this card:
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/item/5505/PLGPF55SA09002M/

Downside that PowerLogix is having business problems, so that 1 year warranty might not be worth much should they go under. Though if the card you get is bad, I suppose it will show itself to be bad in the first 30 days.

Hmm... Not wanting to spend any money on my Sawtooth I am now tempted. I was at PCDepo today and had a go with the Mac-mini and it did feel very quick -- coming from a 400MHz G4 user.

Cheers,

[Steven]

Uni-N would refer to the Uni-North PCI(?) bridge that is in some Macs, I believe. I'm pretty sure it's a chip somewhere in there- might be off on the PCI. It's some sort of internal bus controller...

[Carlos Camacho]

Hmm... any software test to see if my Sawtooth has it?

[Carlos Camacho]

How is your card working out Steven? I'm getting ready to purchase a Sonnet 1.2GHz card for my Sawtooth. I can't wait!

[Steven]

We swapped cards and now everything seems to be much better. It's a lot faster and no complaints so far...

[maaaaark]

My work donated me a 466mhz sawtooth (Digital Audio version)... maybe it was DV... I forget. Either way it has 1.25GB RAM, and a 128MB Radeon 9800 Pro, so an upgrade would rock. Any suggestions on which worked otu the best?

[Steven]

I've only used the one OWC card, and so far I'm pretty happy.

[Carlos Camacho]

Mark, check out my post here:
http://forums.dealmac.com/read.php?1,2131761,2133830#2133830
This also has a good bit of info:
http://eshop.macsales.com/Reviews/Framework.cfm?page=/Benchmarks/121903/main.html

Has ANYONE heard of the company www.provantage.com?

[Carlos Camacho]

Time to bring this thread alive again for all you Sawtooth owners.

My Sawtooth (400MHz) has 4 HDs, a SATA PCI card, a USB 2.0 card, a Radeon, and soon -- a CPU upgrade card. I started thinking about the power supply recently. About a 1/2 year ago I replaced the power supply fan with a quieter model. The case fan was also replaced. This lowered the noise level, but I started to think lately I could do even better. I read that the Sawtooth has the most ATX friendly connector, so off to the store I went this morning. I got a higher rated (watts) power supply that also promised a low-noise design. Using the ATX to Sawtooth page at xlr8rmac, I had the power supply good to go in no time -- super easy! Just two wires to solder.

So I throw everything back in, hit the switch and think "Ooops.. something is wrong", but then I hear the HD clicking, and noticed I forgot to turn on the monitor. It was that quiet! I'm typing this up with my trusty Sawtooth next to me and I have to say I've never used a quieter machine in my life -- it's heaven!

Well, just wanted to pass this "tip" to any low-end Sawtooth owners. Good, low-noise, high wattage ATX power supplies are every where -- pick yourself up one today! You won't regret it.

Cheers,

[DoG]

With my Sawooth, it's the HD noise that dominates. I cleaned out 5 years of dust from the case fan the other day, can't hear it since. The PS fan is audible, but only if you look for it, I might get a queiter fan for it later, what have you replaced it with, Carlos?

I built a wooden box for it, which keeps things quiet, though its not quite finished yet, I still have to install isolation for the doors and some damping material here and there. Also, the case has a 120mm fan pumping air into it from the bottom, but its low RPM, so practically inaudible.

The internal temperature of the computer only rose 3-5 degrees by this, so I think its doing fine.

[Carlos Camacho]

As for the HDs, I recommend you place rubber-like washers between the HDs and the screws that hold them in place (side or bottom screws). That helps to dampen some of the vibration from the HDs that makes it way through the metal "sleds."

>what have you replaced it with, Carlos?
You are asking about the P.S. fan? I don't recall the model. Maybe a Panaflo. Not hard to find suitable P.S. fans. A bit of a pain (though easy) to open up the P.S. case, so ideally, I would recommend you just get a better power supply.

Last night I put some thermal grease on the top of the two larger HDs and then placed some small heatsinks on top. This morning they were pretty "glued-on" (i.e. won't fall off.) I noticed that in the HDs nearest to the front, tend to run a tad hotter, thus my heatsink idea. I had a bunch of heatsinks in my tool box anyways.

Did you say you placed a fan under your Sawtooth? Interesting.

As you know, there is some space at the bottom front of the Sawtooth case. I was considering adding a fan there. That would move cool air over the HD area. Not sure if I want to go to the trouble though.

One thing on my mind is the large case fan. I mentioned that I replaced it. Th newer fan is much quieter than the stock fan. However, I think I can do better. I'm considering removing it and using a smaller fan, which is more efficient and near silent. I think that the case doesn't really need such a huge fan.. more so if I put a little fan in the front.

Hmmm... I've become quite the tweaker recently. :D

One other thing I have in my Sawtooth is a bunch of damping sponge. Not sure how much it helps but I did it anyhow. ;) (Oh, and I also have damping seals around the fans and P.S. :D )

Cheers,

p.s. Although I am talking about the Sawtooth, much of what I said applies to other Mac from that generation and the next.

[DoG]

Case Fan: I don't suggest replacing it with a smaller fan, a smaller fan is always more noisy at transporting the same volume of air. Instead, you could insert a resistor into the power supply line of the fan to reduce its RPM somewhat. If it's a 5W fan, it means it draws about 500 mA of current. You could try tweaking it with a 5 or 10 Ohm potentiometer (one which is capable of handling 5W of power).

HD temp: I am quite catious about doing anything with the main case fan and the HDs because of temperature concerns. The fan I put under the sawtooth doesn't blow air into the case directly, it's just there to push air into the wood box I built around it, the case fan and PS fan take care of moving the air inside the case. The wood box is designed so that air flows in from the bottom and goes out at the top of the back. This should be thermally as well noise-wise the best solution. Also, the case fan inside the computer blows air right over the HDs.

I am not too keen on putting heatsinks on the HDs either, as that might lead to local temperature differences that may (or may not) warp the HDs ever so slightly. I might try to put little rubber pads at the screws, though, as I did for the case fan.

One of my 3 HDs has a SMART temperature sensor, which I use as reference while tweaking. Unfortunately, I cannot read the CPU temp under OS X, but I am not really concerned about it, as I recall it was always below 40 °C, which leaves a lot of headroom.

I have HD temp around 40°C, dipping to about 37°C if the external fan runs at full speed, and rising a lot of that fan is off.

I am also not sure where I would place the damping sponge. I wouldn't want to disturb the airflow inside the case, and as said, I am not keen on blocking heat on the HDs, either.

Oh well, we'll see where this all leads.

[Carlos Camacho]

I am not too keen on putting heatsinks on the HDs either, as that might lead to local temperature differences that may (or may not) warp the HDs ever so slightly. I might try to put little rubber pads at the screws, though, as I did for the case fan.
Hmm...now you got me thinking I should pull of those heatsinks. Hmm...

[w1nst0n]

I hope no one minds me reviving this thread. I just ordered a Radeon 9800 for my Sawtooth G4, but I'm concerned that the stock power supply won't be able handle that along with the Sonnet 1.2 Ghz upgrade, Sonnet Tempo Trio PCI card, and 2 x 160 Gb ATA/133 hard drives.

I've done a lot of research about upgrading the PSU, and I understand that except for a little soldering, a Sawtooth is able to use an inexpensive ATX power supply. The only thing is, I've heard concerns that many of common available ATX units have additional in or out vents in places that could problems in G4 cases.

I read with interest the post above about someone who had already done just such an upgrade, and I was hoping I could get some input on what model had worked for you, and considerations in choosing the PSU, etc.

I'm also curious about the process itself of adapting the PSU for use in the Sawtooth. I saw the page at xlr8yourmac about configuring an ATX PSU to work with a Sawtooth motherboard, I assum that's the correct procedure. I have basically no soldering experience, but I've rebuilt my clamshell iBook a couple of times, so I think I'm capable of some fairly complicated projects, as long as I have clear directions. Is it really straightforward? Also, I saw a suggestion somewhere that you should get an extension cable for the PSU and mod the extension cable, in case anything goes wrong. Sound feasible?

Finally, I've been thinking about the amount of heat all this will generate. I know a better PSU should also improve cooling, but I've thought about pulling the Zip drive (it never gets used anymore) in favor of something that might help to (quietly) keeps the contents cool. Anyone seen something along these lines?

Thanks for any help you can offer!

[Steven]

I can't help you with the specifics, but soldering is not a difficult task - just practice a few times before you do it on anything particularly important ;)

[Carlos Camacho]

Hello,

I don't recall the PSu I bought. I think it was an Antec. About the cooling/fan issue... You want to make sure that the PSU doesn't have a large fan on top or bottom. If you see a PSU's packaging mentioning that it has a 9inch or so fan -- stay away. What you want is a PSU that has mesh/slots/holes on the opposite side of where the vent holes for the exhaust fan is. i.e. Where the wires come out of the PSU, it should take in air. On the opposite side, it should push the hot air out. What you will find these days is that many ATX PSU use a large fan on the top or bottom, which is not good for the Sawtooth.

Yes, follow the page on xlr8yourmac. Be sure that you buy an ATX extension cable. Connect that to the PSU connector, than cute the wires on the extension cable -- NOT the wires on the PSU! This way, if you screw up, you only lose the extension cable and not the PSU's cable.

As for soldering, it is pretty easy. I recommend you search Google for tips for soldering. You can buy some tubes that look like plastic. After you are done soldering, you slide those tubes over the place where you soldered. (Obviously, put the tubes on before you solder). Than, you a hair dryer to heat the tubes. They will shrink making a good cover around the area(s) where there is bare wire. Of coruse you can use electrical tape as well.

Dump the ZIp drive. PC stores sell some 3.5 devices that have fans in them. They simply connect to one of your 3volt connectors from the PSU. For me, having those little fans there means too much noise! So, I don't recommend them. Read this thread carefully because I mentioned some things I did to reduce the heat, like cut out the metal behind the case fan.

Cheers,

[w1nst0n]

Thanks for your responses, I'm starting to feel more comfortable with this idea. Can you just confirm that this is the right page:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/ATX_G4_AGP_conversion/G4_AGP_to_ATX_case_pg2.htm#next

The soldering tubes sound like a good idea, but I'm confused because the page I thought had the relevant instructions shows a "Y" connnection. Would you put a tube over the whole junction?

One other PSU question, I had also read that some PowerMac models have PSU's that force air into the case, others that push it out. Am I safe to assume that the Sawtooth is looking for the same behaviour that i standard in ATX power supplies?

I know what you mean about noise, my Sawtooth is pretty noisy already, I think largely due to the processor upgrade.

Have you guys looked at other GPU cooling options? I was looking at a thermaltake unit (Schooner) just now that used passive cooling, even for a Radeon 9800. Only thing is, it uses an appendage that's meant to protrude out of the case in a neighbouring slot. I think it would make the back of your machine look really ugly, but if it saved some noise, it might be worth it.

[Carlos Camacho]

Yes, that is the page.
The tubes come in different diameters, so use a tube that can fit over the whole Y junction.

The Sawtooth's PSU pushes air out from what I can tell. You need to ask Baldock (member here) to confirm that though.

I have a stock Radeon so, outside of taking off the little fan and sticking a big heatsink on it, I haven't done anything.

Cheers,

[w1nst0n]

Thanks again for all your help.

How much of a risk would I be taking if I just tried using the system without do anything with the PSU? I read that the computer not being able to fire the hard drive is a pretty clear indication it can't muster enough juice, are there other signs?

[Carlos Camacho]

I just remembered this page for installing a new P.S. in the Sawtooth (they should have an English page too, but I think the images are good enough to follow along.)

http://www.amugsicilia.it/recensioni/sawtooth_ATX/index.html

[Carlos Camacho]

This thread comes alive yet again...

Today, I got my Sonnect 1.2Ghz card for my trusty G4 Sawtooth. I just finished installing it (a breeze), and booted the machine. I'm running XBench now to compare against the pre-upgrade speeds. I'm realy looking forward to using my Mac now. In a day or so, I will be flashing a ATI 9800 which I also purchased, and installing it into my Sawtooth. Wish me luck!

:wow:

[Steven]

That's pretty cool - good luck!

[Carlos Camacho]

I feel like I have a new Mac! I purchased a 1.2GHz Sonnet (NewEgg) cpu card, and I've now used it for two weeks. Thumbs up! The second upgrade was in the video department. After considering Mac cards, as well as whether it was worth it, I decided to return to the idea of flashing a PC card. With so many people though getting the "wrong" card, or reporting failures, I was extremely nervous. I came upon a card that had good flashing feedback, and best of all, it was VERY inexpensive via NewEgg. Wanting to take a break from my packing, I decided to give flashing a shot tonight. First I tried the Mac OS 9 blind method. No good. I then pulled out a book I purchased this morning from my local Japanese book store called "MacManiax." It's a kind of a 'hackers' (the 'old' type) of book. I bought it because of the great VNC guide. So, I set it up between my Mac and my wife's PC. A complete breeze I must say, and I admit to spending a few moments moving windows around on the PC and watching them "magically" move over on my Mac. :D I then flashed the card, and restarted. I got the Mac OS X screen, a cursor and then.... BLUE... Nuts! I spent a good 45 min. trying to figure it out. At last, I saw the errors of my ways. In order for the ATI 9800 to work in a lowly Sawtooth G4, it needs pins 3 and 11 masked, so that the card works in 2x AGP mode. Turns out I counted wrong. So, after some new tape, and the card back in, I waited with my breathe held. Success! What a great feeling! I ran the latest ATI updaters and now I have a new 9800 128MB video card in my humble machine. Sadly, the card has 256MB VRAM but the MAc can only see 128MB. However, it is a small price to pay IMHO.. Did I mention how cheap the card was? ;)

Overall, this flashing business, if using the right card, is a breeze. I can't believe I waited so long. So, to all you Sawtooth owners who are thinking, "Should I spend $600 and get a MAc mini?" IMHO, I say Sonnet card + 9800 is a great alternaive. Especially if you are like me, with 1GB+ of RAM, multiple HDs and a SATA card.

Cheers!

[Steven]

How much did the card cost? You say it was cheap ;)

[Carlos Camacho]

Yes, it was cheap:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102362
$126.50

If you look at most Mac stores, you will find the 9200 MAc version for $128. That card is suppose to be less of a card than the old 8500. The Mac 2x/4x 9800 version is a whopping $248. Now tell me, why spend almost double?!?!

BTW, I am talking about my machine, the Sawtooth, but for any of you QS/MDD users out there, you should also consider the Sapphire card. And yes, DVI works perfectly!

Don't walk... RUN AND GET THIS CARD!

[PowerMacX]

Sadly, the card has 256MB VRAM but the MAc can only see 128MB. However, it is a small price to pay IMHO.. Did I mention how cheap the card was? ;)

Actually, in the link you posted it says 128 MB. ;)

This is very interesting... I have a PowerMac G4 (digital audio) with 4x AGP... very interesting indeed... :D

[Carlos Camacho]

Was it 128MB? :blush: I looked at so many cards! I think perhaps I was thinking of the ROM -- 256kbit. (Only 256k works BTW)