Strait C, Small Game Project Team

[KiroNeem]

I'm looking for a few good people to make up a small project team for a strait C, non-cocoa based, 2d game. There are no set ideas for what the game would be, but I would rather keep this game to a relatively manageable size. I mean for this game to be a fun small project, possibly even a learning experience for some novice members. If you might be interested just reply to the thread with your experience and any idea you might have.

[Josh]

Strait C with what graphics API?

[skyhawk]

What is Strait C? is that anything like the narrow body of water between too land masses? :rolleyes:


anyways, what I'm SURE you meant it STRAIGHT C, and if you are doing that, will you be using GLUT?

[KiroNeem]

#1 : Most likely OpenGl, but it can be debated...
#2 : Strait C as is... C, not ++, not #, just C. By doing this you can really get a core idea of how to handle abstract coding. I mean OOP has many valid uses and lets you handle massive amounts of data structures easily. But for the scope of this game, C in general should be power enough, most things are.
#3 : Most likely not GLUT, AGL works perfect for any needs you might do, and again gives you more controll.

[Negative]

I would be interested in taking part in this project, but I have no background or practice in C as of late :P . If someone were to direct a brother in the direction of a few good tutorials or books, I could know enough on the subject to be a novice in a week or two, if you aren't starting this immediately.

[BinarySpike]

It could be in C++???

Negative:
Try googling "C programming tutorial".

[KiroNeem]

Negative: I would absolutly love to have you aboard. People like you who would like to do this project and come out with more skill then before is one of the many reasons I started this project. If you are willing to learn I can point you in many directions. Question though, you say you haven't worked with C as of late, what have you done with it in the past? Also you don't need to become a core programmer if you don't like, when developing a game there are many roles to be played. Many more times then not you end up doing several jobs anyway depending on the team's needs.

BinarySpike: It 'could' be, but it won't be. I wanted to keep this a simple game that people like Negative and such can get into easily. I myself began programming with C++ and unfortunetly it ruined my concept of how low level processes can get done for the time being. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I love it, and is not that different from C, but the knowledge of programming a game without OOP is somthing that I think many new programmers skip, and it is a vital part of learning to program games. At least in my humble opinion.

[BinarySpike]

I started with BASIC then Javascript then Java...

I HATE JAVA... (because of the OOP)

So I learned C. :D

I started my udg game with only C and found that when it came time for the game part
I couldn't read the code very well (headache well) so I moved it to C++ and found that the
coding "seemed" easyer to code.
really what was happaning was that the code wasn't grouped together and made the
coding easyer. (and faster)

classes help (alot) when it comes to "game" programming.

But I can't see anybody using classes for something like... Networking...

the knowledge of programming a game without OOP is somthing that I think many new programmers skip, and it is a vital part of learning to program games.

Yes, I do agree,
but 'game' programming is MUCH easer with OOP

At least in my humble opinion.

Check out the Carbon-dev or Cocoa-dev mailing lists on apple,
They would think your "humble opinion" was what everybody
thought, not just you. :lol:

Alot of poeple say START WITH THE BASICS.
I learned a caluclator language (RoboWar 4.4) before I learned Javascript.
(RoboWar was done with a variable stack *shiver*)


Whats this project going to be???
(what level)
3D, 2D, 2D (with 3D graphics)

[Skorche]

Binary Spike: You didn't like java because of the OOP, but you like C++? Java seemed like a breath of fresh air to me.

Anyway, I might be interested as the inkubator seems to still be inactive. I'm mostly interested in collision detection.

[Negative]

KiroNeem - I have only delt with C about a year back, when I first started studying the subject. I was still using windows, and all of the books I checked out on it were for only dos applications, and I had thought that C was only good for such things because of it, but now recently I have begun doing more research and realize that is not true in the slightest. My previous programming expirence started with actionscripting for flash, where I then moved on to PHP.

I can also do pixel art pretty well if you need any assistance for that, but if I learn C soon I could do both :) .

BinarySpike - Thanks brother, I cant beleive I didn't think of that :wacko: .

[KiroNeem]

Binary Spike: Good to see someone belives in their methods. C++ is great, I whole heatedly admit.

Most likely 2D, I'm just a sucker for 2D games in general, although that would all depend on what this team that I'm trying to pull together decides on.

Negative: The book I first started out with (and actually found at random) was "Tricks of The Mac Game Programming Gurus"... It was a very good book about game programming on the mac, unfortunetly it already assumed you knew how to program. To learn C you really don't need anything specifically for mac, but there are books out there such as "Learn C On The Macintosh" by Dave Mark. If you want a book I suggest just to go to boarders and pick up any C book, thay usually are all good, somtimes it's very nice to have something physical to learn from then just a website. Binary Spike is right though, just search Google. Most of the mac specific APIs and such you ever need to learn you usually just learn along the way. Looking at other people's code has almost become second nature for me, and is also a great learning path. Off to the side for a second, one of the books I'm reading right now is "Rules of Play" By Kaite Salen and Eric Zimmerman. I haven't read for into it yet, but it is an awesome book that lets you into the fundamentals of game design, explaining the potential of games rather then what game are. Very good read to say the least.

Anyway yes if you would like to join then consider yourself a part of the team. What pixel art have you done? Can you do animations with any frequency, or is it mainly static pictures? If you have anything hosted I'd love to see them. I do some on the side and actually have progressed a little with my most recent game that I'm working on, although not much to be proud of.

Depending on how many people I can pull together I might set up a mailing list for this, or at least a dedicated forum somewhere.

[Achenar]

If you need music for your project, contact me. I've posted a thread here:

http://www.idevgames.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8130

[Zekaric]

I can't guarrantee that I'll be available for 100% of the project but I could lend a hand if wanted.

10+ years of C programming so far.

[KiroNeem]

Zekaric: Would absolutly love to have you in the team. This game project is aimed to be small so shouldn't require pain staking hours of time anyway, and if it ever does get to that point I will most likely take over for that so not to dieter anyone. This is ment to be a fun public (teamed) project.

Also note to anyone who wants to discuss this or is interested in joining the team, I have just set up an IRC Channel on afternet.org. I should be on there for long amounts of time in the next few days so if you like just stop by.

Server : afternet.org
Chan : #MacGameDev

Me -> Kiro

[BinarySpike]

Binary Spike: You didn't like java because of the OOP, but you like C++? Java seemed like a breath of fresh air to me.


Java is controlled by OOP (instead of main(){} you have to type all kinds of stuff for the start)
Java was just tooooooo much OOP.

Like I don't use inheritance...
But, I do like how classes can have functions (and you have access to the "current" class)

Java was to much, but C++ you didn't HAVE to use it. (you know what I mean :))

[spaceb]

I would be interested if we could use certain aspects of C++ (especially data hiding)...

[KiroNeem]

Which aspects are you thinking about in particular, other then data hiding? I'd love to talk with you about this... if you have IRC or AIM we can talk about this much quicker.

[Zekaric]

Data hiding isn't unique to C++. You can hide all that data you like in C.

[Negative]

KrioNeem - Well, my avatar is an example of my work, it took me about 30 minutes. I have animation expirence from flash, and if you want to test my skills make a request and I'll see if I can work my magic to the extent of gratification. As for buying a book, This kid doesn't have any money, or a job :D , so I am force to rely on communist contributions from kindly internet users, but hopefully that should be enough to atleast really get me started with C programming.

[Duane]

i would love to, i unfortunatly have more experience in Obj-c as of late, but i know C farely well. Links?

[KiroNeem]

Since you all seem to be on now, might there be a chance that I we could meet either in IRC afternet.org, or AIM...?

IRC -
server "irc.afternet.org"
channel "#macgamedev"

AIM -
name - "KiroNeem"

[Zekaric]

I'm at work... Taking a break. Honest!

I don't have AIM. [Shudder] past experience. I might be able to swing yahoo messenger but that's about it.

Currently behind a pretty fat firewall. Mozilla chat isn't making it out. Can't seem to find a webchat that will connect to afternet.org.

[spaceb]

Zekaric: Technically, C does allow data hiding, but I don't like having to keep static variables in different source files to hide them from each other. I also like being able to hide certain class variables and expose other ones within a class. To me, C has more of a hack at data hiding than true data hiding.

Negative: If all you've done is web programming so far, I'd recommend "Mac Programming for Dummies". I was lost with every other Mac programming book I read until then, but after I read it, everything else I read made sense.

Kironeem: Send me an e-mail, and I'll tell you when we could meet up on IRC. I would just like to use C++ classes (instead of C structs) so that we could use member functions within a class and have public and private variables/functions within a class. This would only apply to "objects" in the game, such as sprites or characters. Most of the code wouldn't use anything that's C++-specific. As far as a graphics technology, I'd recommend quickdraw instead of OpenGL for a 2D game. Anyone disagree?

[Zekaric]

Spaceb: True enough. However this doesn't really bother me too much. The way I work with structs is that I never touch the variables inside the struct outside of the module(s) where that structure is manipulated.

It's pretty close to C++ in a way in that only API calls are made to manipulate a structure instead of setting variables directly. But I'll give C++ that, having the ability to set things to private and public can be handy to prevent certain programmers from getting their sticky hands on the structure variables.

Kironeem: I'm in Vancouver. Pacific time zone. Can only be available some time after 18:00PST. Anything happen in the chat?

[ThemsAllTook]

As far as a graphics technology, I'd recommend quickdraw instead of OpenGL for a 2D game. Anyone disagree?

QuickDraw is being officially deprecated in Tiger. Quartz is pretty slow, so OpenGL is generally your best option.

- Alex Diener

[skyhawk]

I'd recommend quickdraw instead of OpenGL for a 2D game. Anyone disagree?
personally I don't see ANY advantage to using quickdraw over OpenGL... unless you are targeting like.. OS 8

[Negative]

Negative: If all you've done is web programming so far, I'd recommend "Mac Programming for Dummies". I was lost with every other Mac programming book I read until then, but after I read it, everything else I read made sense.


Thank's man, I'll have to pick that one up :) .

[Zekaric]

My experience. Nil for Quick Draw. Pretty good with OpenGL however I've mainly been sheltered having to use a library on top of it (at work, HOOPS3D). I haven't done anything in terms of incorporating OpenGL into a Carbon/Cocoa/whatnot app on the Mac (at work it's all windows. Used to be also SGI and Solaris.) The most I've managed so far would be using SDL and OpenGL (but also not on the Mac.)

For a simple 2D game wouldn't OpenGL be a little heavy handed? Unless you are looking to put in a lot of rotations and scalings of bitmapped tiles then I can see it's lure. Otherwise a bitmapped based game, a la the old fashioned way might be easier. Unless that is one of the design goals then I won't quibble.

[BinarySpike]

personally I don't see ANY advantage to using quickdraw over OpenGL... unless you are targeting like.. OS 8

True!!!!!!!!!!!

OpenGL is the best way for a 2D game (or Quartz :()...

[skyhawk]

For a simple 2D game wouldn't OpenGL be a little heavy handed? Unless you are looking to put in a lot of rotations and scalings of bitmapped tiles then I can see it's lure. Otherwise a bitmapped based game, a la the old fashioned way might be easier. Unless that is one of the design goals then I won't quibble.
I don't think so. I actually think it is a very lightweight solution. especially for a simple bitmap game

[KiroNeem]

I would have to agree with Skyhawk. Ths subject has been debated over and over on several threads and really OpenGl is a very simple solution, it runs fast, and self manages most of it's self. True it does have the capability to do so much more then just a direct 2D game, but it gets the job done efficiently.

I won't be able to talk with any of you on IRC for the next few days, my schedule at work is daunting. Although I will be keeping up on this fourm.

So the people at are interested on working on this project, even if I have talked to you already, just e-mail me your name, contact information, and what experience that you have to, also your your general schedule so I may evaluate what kind of work potential we have here. kiro.roo@gmail.com

Also, if anyone who is interested in working on this projects has any ideas for what the game should be, send that via e-mail or just on this forum. We are working on setting up an independent forum just for this project so until then we will have to use what we can.

[Zekaric]

An I capitulate... OpenGL is gold! :p

If we're thinking of simple games...

Pit Based:
Tetris, Columns and Plenty others.
These are easy. Usually no AI needed.

Scrollers:
R-Type, 1942, etc.
These are slightly more difficult than pit based. No AI needed other than simple rules and patterns for enemies.

Board Based:
Chess, checkers, battle chess (I miss it), laser chess, attax, go, monopoly, payday, life, etc.
A little harder because of AI. Although some simple rules may govern it instead of facier ones.

Sim Based:
Civilization, sim *, etc.
Depending on the game there could be no AI or tons of it. Sim * usually not so much, just a heck of a lot of rules and stuff to balance and tune.

I think for a 'small' game a pit based or scroller is easiest to tackle. When AI gets involved that can be a bit of a stumbling block. Scripting the AI for board and sim based would help in it's AI tuning but if you tack on scripting to a project, it's no longer small or simple in my opinion.

[skyhawk]

I demand a SimAnt clone! it's been too long!

[KiroNeem]

One idea that I have had on my mind for a little while is producing a
game such as "NetHack", at least the aspects that it is tile based and
has an RPG type battle system. Where the game would come into it's
own is that it would be based around computers and networking.
Basically you character would be a data packet or sorts, traveling
around on the net in a graphical representation or servers and routers. You would travel though net fighting Lag Beasts and security programs... I also had
the idea that it you actually could summon code spells such as
firewalls and such, then the speed at which you cast, or "upload it",
would depend on your current bandwidth to your home computer (not your
actual computer, but in the game). So depending on how your
connected and from where, it could affect the whole game play. This
was one idea I have been fooling around with, feel free to expand on
it if you like.


Although that might be a bit larger scale then this game. I think if we keep it small the better. A side scroller like R-Type might be cool, not very hard to program either.

[Zekaric]

Not to poo poo the idea but something like this needs to be concrete and everyone working on the project know what nethack is and does in order for everyone to be on the same page. If we make a direct clone and nethack in some incarnation is available for all to inspect that will be easier. If we try to make something new with nebulous requirements then the project is not going to go very far until someone does some design work.

Edit: Ok maybe a little less harsh, the main proponents of the project should have a concrete idea what needs to be done on the game, not necessarily everyone.

[KiroNeem]

Agreed, I was just throwing the idea out there... I will most likely produce that game in my own time.

[BinarySpike]

Here's a good link to look at thats on idev http://www.idevgames.com/articles/guidance/id210/

I demand a SimAnt clone! it's been too long!

That game was big because of the AI...

And the little ants that ran around while you were the spider eating them... :lol:

[Duane]

I loved Sim Ant! I still have it, but unfortunately, I can't use it.

[ravuya]

Hey, I still have Sim Ant too. Now if only I could figure out a way to install floppy based games on my Mac, I could play it again. :)

[KiroNeem]

Negative, do you mind if you can send me your e-mail, unfortunetly you don't provide any contacts. Also how goes the forum, If you can't set that up it's fine, I just need to know.

Kiro.roo@gmail.com

[Duane]

Hey, I still have Sim Ant too. Now if only I could figure out a way to install floppy based games on my Mac, I could play it again. :)

I have the cd-based one, but no classic :/

Would it be legal to email a program if the receiver already has it?

[sealfin]

Would it be legal to email a program if the receiver already has it?
SimAnt is abandonware (http://mac.the-underdogs.org/index.php?show=game&id=122) anyway (link to MacGarden, but I don't think any of their dl's work at present - they got hacked a short while ago :()

[Duane]

that's still not legal, i don't think.

[BinarySpike]

They could always send a picture of the floppy (with ID) and you could send them
the CD version, more legal than just sending it, and it a less risk of somebody sueing you...

[Duane]

now I just need to find the cd...

[BinarySpike]

I have a CD... (but it has about 4 other sim games on it :wacko:)

[Duane]

I have that Same One! i haven't played it in years though,

[BinarySpike]

Well I couldn't get SimCopter or Streets of SimCity to work on my mac :(

[PowerMacX]

I demand a SimAnt clone! it's been too long!
Well I couldn't get SimCopter or Streets of SimCity to work on my mac :(

There is always SimStapler (http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/15708) ;)

Reader Ratings: 5 Stars
Features: 5 Stars
Playability: 5 Stars
Graphics & Sound: 5 Stars
Stability: 5 Stars

[BinarySpike]

Uh, how do I staple :???:

There's no documentation on stapling :???: