Is there still a market for 2D games?

[Taxxodium]

Hey,

With the current hype of 3D games, I was wondering if it's still a good idea to make 2D games. I really mean real 2D games, not 2D games with a 3D effect or 2.5D.

What do you guys think?

[BeyondCloister]

Of course there is a market still for non 3D games.

It is like saying is there still a market for books after the arrival of film.

[sealfin]

I'd hope so, as I'm working on three at the moment :p

[belthaczar]

I'd hope so, as I'm working on three at the moment :p

That sounds like 6 dimensions to me.

[Steven]

If I buy a game it's not going to be because it's 3D or 2D, it will be because it's fun to play.

[Dr. Light]

That sounds like 6 dimensions to me.

2^3=8

I am figuring right?

[Taxxodium]

2^3=8

I am figuring right?


No, 3 games in 2D, ie 3*2 = 6

So basically, as long as you have a good story and a fun game, it doesn't really matter in what dimension your game is in.
How far can you go with eye candy?

[kodex]

yay! does anyone remember 4d Boxing? Im still wondering where the time travel played in.

[Dr. Light]

Never mind. I was thinking of something else. Along the lines of coordinates and whatnot

[CarbonX]

there's certainly a market for 2D games... unfortunately so many people are swayed by eye candy *cough* Halo to really bother. I could care less about graphics as long as it's fun to play

[Dan Potter]

This is just IMO, but I think Mac games are the very best place to do 2D. People like little desktop time wasters quite a lot (just ask my wife while she's trying to study for finals). For the time wasters, 2D is as good as or better than 3D because they run anywhere and the game play is typically simpler. When you really sit down to Play a Game(tm) at a console or what not, you're paying a lot more attention to all the graphics and details, so it makes more sense for it to be more flashy (and 3D is one way to achieve that).

So why Mac? Because it's a desktop system with not a lot of time wasters installed by default, and people still download and buy stuff for it. A lot of people are afraid to download Windows stuff now because of spyware and trojans. That unfortunate aspect of Windows is probably coming to OSX sooner or later*, so take advantage of the lack of it now ;)

* Yes, I know it's harder to do that crud under OSX. But Apple makes the system's main user an admin by default (which gives access to a lot of stuff already), and root is only a password away. How many times have you been approached by a family member to "help me install this screen saver my friend sent me"? :)

[funkboy]

Dan, that reasoning is great and I agree. The Mac is an operating system that people use to get things done, not just play a big intense game - but a little time-waster is something a lot of professionals still like to own.

Price, easy of download/installation/play, and fun atmosphere are, I think, the most important ingredients. The $30 shareware market on Mac is pretty small... I think $15 is pretty close to the sweet spot right now. And for 2D - my 2D shareware games still get sold at a decent rate. (they sell for $15 and $18)

[BinarySpike]

I was wondering if it's still a good idea to make 2D games. I really mean real 2D games, not 2D games with a 3D effect or 2.5D.


Depends on what you mean by "2D games with a 3D effect".

If you meant 2D games like Lolo III; probebly not.
But if you meant games like Kill Dr. Cote; YES!!!!!

I'm a fan of 2D games that have textures that were rendered in a 3D modeler.
I'm entrering one in udg 2005 (but my next game will have to be 3D for my resume).

[skyhawk]

yay! does anyone remember 4d Boxing? Im still wondering where the time travel played in.
do not say such irrational things such as the fourth dimension is time...

anyways, andrew said it best. 2D will not be going anywhere as long as people want it.

[BeyondCloister]

do not say such irrational things such as the fourth dimension is time...

Of course the fourth dimension is time and space is the fifth dimension. Can you tell it is only a day to go now? ;)

[Steven]

Oh, no, here we go again...

[Taxxodium]

the fourth dimesion is time, accept it because it's not gonna change. End discussion.

Now, what I mean with 2D games with a 3D effect where basically Isometric games, like StarCraft and Diablo. I dunno if I would consider 2D games with 3D rendered sprites as pure 2D, but I guess they are.

[sealfin]

Even Maelstrom has 3D rendered sprites, but I doubt you'd find anybody who would argue that those sprites made it a 3D game...

...I'd argue that Diablo isn't 3D (but I'd also argue that of id's Wolfenstein), as aside from in the perspective of the game, there's no usage of the third-dimension implied by that perspective in the gameplay – there's no opportunity to move on anything other than a two-dimensional plane* – if you want what I'd consider a proper isometric game, take a look at Head Over Heels (http://retrospec.sgn.net/games/hoh/screenshots.html), Rare's Knightlore, etc.

(*ignoring the 'ledges' where Blizzard have simply used the trick of implying a third-dimension by using a stair graphic to join together two planes on the same level, with free travel between the planes curtailed by a wall.)

[aaronsullivan]

What's wrong with Lolo III? :)
I'd play that if it had updated graphics... ;-)

[PowerMacX]

First time ever everyone here seems to agree on a poll ;)

[Dan Potter]

First time ever everyone here seems to agree on a poll ;)

Indeed.. the question is, is it wishful thinking from a bunch of people who want to write 2D games? ;)

[BeyondCloister]

Indeed.. the question is, is it wishful thinking from a bunch of people who want to write 2D games? ;)

I doubt that very much. If anything it seems that people are ignoring the 2D factor as most of the discussions in the chat room seems to be about 3D related items.

Ask yourself if the last independent / non accountant driven game you bought 2D or 3D? I know the last one I bought was 2D.

[BinarySpike]

What's wrong with Lolo III?
I'd play that if it had updated graphics... ;-)


If my nintendo still worked I'd still be trying to beat it.
I'd buy it if it had updated graphics!

Anyway, I was just giving an example of a game that used non-3d like graphics that everybody
new about.

I just can't wait till Revolution comes out YOWZA!!!!
From FREE networking tracker with wi-fi to the screen-shots of some of the games there
making right now.... YOWZA!!!!

[sealfin]

...most definately a market for 2D games, but whether that market is on the Mac is the debatable point...

It seems like most 2D coders are emigrating to the J2ME platform (or to the first wave of DS, and to a lesser extent, PSP titles – but whether those platforms continue with as strong a mixture of 2D and 3D is another point for debate.)

Whilst I'd like to investigate the J2ME platform, it seems to have all the problems of coding for Windows (sh_t compatibility) with none of the benefits (cheap, powerful boxen), and borrowing a few problems from the console platforms as well (distribution being tied to publishers.)

[Dan Potter]

I was mostly joking. :)

I think it's also relevant to figure in what someone else above mentioned, regarding how you define a "2D game" vs a "3D game". Many games today being pushed out in very mainstream channels are fully 2D games, they just have a 3D interface. 3D objects, 3D rendering, movable camera, etc, but all the action is essentially taking place in a 2D plane. A great example is Amplitude for the PS2.

Really truly 3D games have always seemed somewhat confusing to me (e.g. Descent). Even most FPSes today are still basically 2D games with height/elevation changes.

Perhaps the real question is how well the market will still accept games based around bitmap-based visuals. Put that way it's more of a question of how much effort and polish you put into the interface and visuals vs the game play style. Seems to align a lot better with the reality of the game industry when you look at it that way.

[PowerMacX]

Descent :love: ! snif - so much fun.

Sure it was full 3D but also, in a sense, it was also a 1D game since levels consisted mostly of long tunnels/tubes.

Dan is right, many 3D games today have 2D gameplay at its core.

[Max]

You guys like Lolo III? Hmm, very interesting... ;)

[Taxxodium]

I would like to see some 2D "cartoony" beat 'em up games on the mac. In the style of Darkstalkers or Street Fighter or Capcom vs SNK.

[Max]

I would like to see some 2D "cartoony" beat 'em up games on the mac. In the style of Darkstalkers or Street Fighter or Capcom vs SNK.

Did you try Monte Boyd's Dragon Clash?

[BeyondCloister]

Descent :love: ! snif - so much fun.

I suffered motion sickness after playing that game. I tried it with and without a 3D headset.

[Taxxodium]

Yeah, Descent was cool. I loved the music. The only game that caused me motion sickness was Duke Nukem 3D, probably because I was playing it too much.

BTW, I searched for Dragon Clash and aparently the company that made it doesn't exist anymore. Oh well, I still have SNES9X :)

[aaronsullivan]

Dragon clash:
http://www.monteboyd.com/monte_boyd_games.htm

I wish Nintendo would re-release the a combined/condensed NES + SNES. They could even sell all the games on optical discs to save money because entire games could easily be loaded into RAM, now. :love:

[Taxxodium]

The Gameboy Advance is basically the same as the SNES, at least in terms of graphics. But if you want to play the games on a bigger screen you'll need a gamecube.

I wouldn't be surprised if some hacker made a SNES emulator for the PSP, or even the iPod :p

[aaronsullivan]

Yes, I have a gameboy player for my Gamecube, but it doesn't play my original NES or SNES games, and Nintendo is only releasing the biggest hits as gameboy games with the resolution slightly off (at $20 a pop!) Some of the update/remakes are cool, like Gradius Galaxies and especially Metroid Zero Mission (any metroid fan who hasn't played this through isn't actually a metroid fan), but I just want an official system to play, with authentic feeling controllers.

I don't think the PSP can run executables off of the memory sticks and the UMD format for PSP is currently locked (no burners), and there is no way any current iPod (including iPhoto) could come close to playing those games.

Anyway with all of these TV games selling so well (like the Atari 2600 controller that contains the whole system) I'd think that Nintendo would get something out there. Maybe Nintendo's next system will have a cartridge slot for old games. :p

Anyway, you can see there is at least a ton of interest in 2D games from my direction. I agree with the notion that most "3D" games are actually 3D representations of 2D gameplay. The best 3D games take advantage of the extra dimension (like the Water Temple in Zelda Ocarina of Time.)

[Dan Potter]

You guys want to play emulated games on your TV like the good ol' days, then go look into a Dreamcast. I never worked on any of the emulator projects myself, but I helped a lot of them use my toolkit :D and played around with them a bit. Many of the emulators are pretty high quality.

[sealfin]

@aaronsullivan: there's already a freeware NES emulator for the GBA out there somewhere (lost the link ages ago...), although you'll need a flash-cartridge for it to be useful, and a Windows box to collate the NES ROMs prior to flashing.

Lots of video options for playing NES games with a resolutaion greater than that of the GBA, but the best feature is undoubtably the use of the SRAM for save states...

And all of this evangelism is so useful when I still can't remember the name of the emulator :mad:

[sealfin]

...and I'm pretty sure that there are versions of MAME and SNES9X (or ZSNES) available for the GamePark (GP32) (http://www.gamepark.com/eng/).

What do you call Korean Engrish?
Mill who lived in the Root village found that storks were not able to fly by oiled wings.

[aaronsullivan]

The closest thing to what I want is the Pocket Famicom (http://www.portagame.com/classic_handhelds.php/2005/01/23/new_handheld_console_plays_nes_classics) with a "family converter" (http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?products_id=171&lsaid=322441) (sounds religious, but it let's you play the US NES cartridges or European PAL cartridges.) You can hook this baby up to a TV and apparently hook up other nintendo controllers to it.

Problem is the controller is ALL wrong. Those control pad on a disc things that are everywhere are so much less precise than one where you can feel the surface of the controller under your thumb (in order to tell when you are pressing diagonal.)

What I really need to do is dedicate a mac to playing on the TV and just invest in some authentic SNES and/or NES USB controllers. (http://www.sealiecomputing.com/retrozone/index.html) A great job for a Mac mini, but that's a little pricey for this purpose. My older iMac and iBook might have some issues running SNES and Genesis emulators super perfect smooth. (Last I checked, those SNES emulators still had the occasional graphical imperfections, too.)

I do have a couple of old NES's at the house, but the connectors are overused and I don't really want to replace them (http://www.jandar.net/nes72pin/), but that is another option. Problem is, the controllers are beat and that doesn't get me an SNES.

I'd just like to get something new and official from Nintendo. They could add some value to it all (bonus features like historical interviews, box art, etc.) and keep it more simple and, of course, completely legal.

EDIT: I'm attempting to buy those authentic SNES controllers from RETROZONE (linked above.) I'll let anyone know how that turns out if you're interested.

[aaronsullivan]

These posts about retro gaming may seem off topic. So, I just want to make this discussion somewhat relevant.

I have played only a couple 3D games that really warrant being 3D in the first place AND capture the magic of some of the original raw gaming found in early arcade games, a few Atari 2600 games (like Yar's Revenge) and NES games.

These games were limited in graphics and music and control capabilities. In order to make up for this designers were forced to maximize the play experience. Rewards and scoring and incentives all had to come from the interaction, NOT just visual eye-candy, or amazing music.

Because of this, you sort of get these games that to today's audience seem like they have been boiled down to the very marrow of what makes a game fun. But, there is more to it than that.

The 2-D abstraction allows for very intuitive and precise control. Many of the best games actually required the player to become "skilled" at manipulating the game. Bionic Commando, for instance, is loved by many because of the imposed limitation of the grapple. You can't just press a button and jump, you need to learn how to utilize this extending arm. Timing and assessing distances and trajectories become a skill the player needs to perfect in order to succeed.

Try implementing something similar in a 3-D environment and it becomes dumbed down. Take Metroid Prime, for instance. The grapple beam is supposed to act in a similar way, but in order to make it playable, there are only key dots (with big glowing icons) that you can connect to. Trajectory is all but impossible to predict and jumping locations are made obvious and easy to manage. Usually, grappling is a separate event from the rest of the game instead of feeling integrated (like attacking enemies and dodging shots simultaneously as in Bionic Commando.) Considerable effort was made in Metroid Prime to make it more interactive than previous attempts (like cheap pull-me-to-the-point imitations in games like Half-Life), but it is MUCH more rewarding and interactive in the 2-D blocky pixelated Bionic Commando.

My point here is that I think many gamers yearn for that core gaming experience they once had, but can't grasp why they aren't getting it in newer games. Sadly, it is easier to get excited about an upcoming game based on pictures and sounds and video. Generally, there is no demo of the game play early in the hype machine... just screenshots.

Very little has been added to the game play possibilities by the ability to simulate 3-D. Wolfenstein 3D had most of what FPS offer today (can you honestly tell me that Doom 3 is that much different concerning game play?), and Mario 64 is still the best 3D platform game I've ever played. Zelda OoT maximized the feeling of immersion and overcame some 3D limitations with the "lock-on" system for adventure games, but the core of the game still came from the original Zelda on the NES. 3-D combat games like UT or Battlefield have added death match and team play, but that is more a result of ubiquitous networking than 3D simulation. (i.e. 2D games could also have death match and team play.)

2D games, in my estimation, end up being MORE interactive than 3D games. The trick is to get past that 3D stigma that is created by the giant hype machine. Honestly, I think there is a trend starting that will usher in many more 2D games, even on consoles. Those Warioware games on the Gameboys, Viewtiful Joe, and Alien Hominid are just the beginning. Developers are somewhat disillusioned with the upcoming consoles and the expense/risk of giant games with warehouses full of content. Meanwhile there are these little Atari controllers you can hook up to your TV with ancient 2600 games in them that are selling like mad.

If anything I'd say we are the verge of a comeback wave for 2D.

[phydeaux]

I've been kind of out of the loop playing mainstream games, but did anyone play any of the relatively recent Spiderman 2 game? That seemed to have some sort of 3d grappling mechanism and it's supposed to be a pretty good game, though I'm curious exactly how that worked.

It seems even portables now are getting all crazy-3d, so I'm not sure if bitmapped 2d games are going to make much of a comeback on consoles. I definitely do enjoy the 2.5d genre of stuff like Viewtiful Joe, which I think was first done really well with Nights into Dreams. One of my favorite platformers of all time is Gunstar Heroes, and Treasure had made a game like that called Mischief Makers on the N64 that was a lot of fun to play, though I wished they had just made Gunstar Heroes 2, which would have been out of control. This is not the original question, but I don't know how well these games do- probably not any worse than your run-of-the-mill 3d game.

For the purposes of shareware/indie games, I'd say a large segment of consumers for this sector are looking for retrogames, so there's definitely a market for 2d bitmap graphics. There's absolutely no question about that at all. I don't know the original motivation for this poll, but if it's about what sort of shareware game is going to sell, I think your best bet is to rip-off a puzzle game or card game, and do it really well- a really polished casual game can go far, and those you can do pretty well in 2d.

[aaronsullivan]

I wanted to add to my point one clarification: I consider a game using polygons/3-D imagery but with 2-D game play to be 2-D. (As some call it 2.5D) The method of generating the imagery hardly matters, it's the interaction and interpretation of the abstracted images that's important.

3D games do have the possible advantage of making you feel like you are there (until you grapple with interacting with the world. :) ) I play WoW, and that's half the game.

I wouldn't call the gameplay revolutionary, however. :)

As for the indie market, it may take awhile, but I think there will be a demand for lower budget and indie console games. Yes, the console companies have a tight control over the games due to licenses, but I think Nintendo, in particular, is beginning to see the value in lower budget games and letting their developers take risks. Look at the DS for instance and, again, those Wario ware games. They have also, in the past, funded small development projects. It's no where near the open platform we get from PC's and our beloved Macs, but I think the big guys might discover a hidden market there.

I'm just thinking that the console developer community is going to have to do something about this MORE MORE MORE attitude coming from Microsoft and Sony and even Nintendo. I used to dream of working for Nintendo, but now I don't think I'd enjoy working on a mega project at all. I'd have so little influence on the game itself.

One way to minimize cost is to 2D. :)

[maaaaark]

Very much so. PC casual games (mostly 2D) market is HUGE. I'm not sure what to say about the Mac side, but my company is working to change that ;)

[Max]

Very much so. PC casual games (mostly 2D) market is HUGE. I'm not sure what to say about the Mac side, but my company is working to change that ;)

What company? :???:

[Dan Potter]

Developers are somewhat disillusioned with the upcoming consoles and the expense/risk of giant games with warehouses full of content.

This is going a little offtopic again ;) but most people don't realize just how disillusioned the mainstream game industry is with the console treadmill. It was cool for a while when they were getting significant improvements in capability, but at this point I've been reading interview after interview where major developers (I'm thinking of Yuji Naka in particular here) are talking about how they probably aren't going to bother with new consoles for a while due to the increased complexity in making a decent game for them, the increased lead time that gamers won't want to put up with, etc. Something tells me the treadmill trend can't last much longer.

You guys mentioned homebrew/indie on consoles... I point you once again at the Dreamcast. :) Not trying to sound like a broken record here, but we've spent years building up the tools and commercial indie community on that console, and it requires no mod chips or anything. There are already three published indie titles, and more on the way. So if you have an itch to develop commercially on a console with indie release possibilities, look there. Not a huge market, but it's good for getting experience if you want it.

[funkboy]

So if you have an itch to develop commercially on a console with indie release possibilities, look there. Not a huge market, but it's good for getting experience if you want it.

We need consoles sold... what if Sega (or someone else) started making them again, and included independent games with the system?
That processor is plenty powerful for a lot of things, and it could be made for a very cheap amount (I imagine) at this point in time, since the technology is a little older.

That's a great idea.

[Dan Potter]

This is probably getting off-topic pretty bad from the original subject (sorry), but...

We need consoles sold... what if Sega (or someone else) started making them again, and included independent games with the system?
That processor is plenty powerful for a lot of things, and it could be made for a very cheap amount (I imagine) at this point in time, since the technology is a little older.

That's a great idea.

It's a very nice technology, from a price to performance ratio perspective. Actually the Naomi console boards are the same as the DC, but they have double the system RAM and double the VRAM. Older Naomi boards would only read the game from ROM, but they now have GD-Roms just like DCs. There's a new board coming out from Sammy (grr.. :mad:) that is basically a DC for an arcade cabinet.. can't remember the name now, it starts with an A.

Anyway, it's possible they might come back later and ask DC indie/homebrew folks to improve their games for an all-in-one type thing... I know that's happened before for other platforms. But again if you go to Lik Sang or somewhere like that, you can get a DC for $30 and the new games are around $15. Not so bad.

So (to try desperately to get back on subject :lol:) if anyone wants very cheap / free console coding experience, there ya go.

[Taxxodium]

I think, if you really want old school (console) games, you should take a look at emulators. Most of them even offer the old skool gameplay.

I wonder if it would be possible to have each console manufacturer add support for some sort of a software emulator, so that independent developers can develop their games to that emulator, allowing them to make only 1 version for all consoles.
A little bit like Java for computers.

[sealfin]

...anybody remember the XGameStation (http://www.xgamestation.com/about_gamestation.php)?

@Dan Potter: there's also of course the (seemingly) much more widely supported GBA homebrew scene (http://www.gbadev.org/), although I haven't done any GBA coding for months now... I've been away too long from GBA coding; PERN (http://www.thepernproject.com/index.php?system_id=2&page=Tutorials) now features SNES homebrew tutorials :love:

[Dan Potter]

@Dan Potter: there's also of course the (seemingly) much more widely supported GBA homebrew scene (http://www.gbadev.org/), although I haven't done any GBA coding for months now... I've been away too long from GBA coding; PERN (http://www.thepernproject.com/index.php?system_id=2&page=Tutorials) now features SNES homebrew tutorials :love:

Depends on what you mean by "supported". :) I've spent a lot of time mother-hen-ing the DC scene (as have others), so in that since I think it's been very well supported. Been doing a lot less of it since I got my Mac though...

Oh and the new Sammy board is called "Atomiswave".

[DavidJJ]

Very much so. PC casual games (mostly 2D) market is HUGE. I'm not sure what to say about the Mac side, but my company is working to change that ;)

I can only hope this means you're porting GameMaker (http://www.gamemaker.nl) one of the best 2D game tools on the PC side, to the Mac.

Err, on second thought, it's 60,000 lines of Delphi code so probably not.

[Puzzler183]

In response to the OP, of course there is. Look at what DirectX did: after removing DirectDraw in Dx8, they put it back in Dx9.

[frozendevil]

We need consoles sold... what if Sega (or someone else) started making them again, and included independent games with the system?
That processor is plenty powerful for a lot of things, and it could be made for a very cheap amount (I imagine) at this point in time, since the technology is a little older.

That's a great idea.


In terms of technology, we're slightly past "smaller and cheaper" ;) (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1667467,00.asp)

I would love that as long as it's $ < 50, unlike a certain new NES clone :sneaky:

I also remember being interested in the XGameStation when it was first announced, then being disappointed by the price :zzz:

sorry for being off-topic :cry:

[codemattic]

Dragon clash:
I wish Nintendo would re-release the a combined/condensed NES + SNES. They could even sell all the games on optical discs to save money because entire games could easily be loaded into RAM, now. :love:

have you seen this yet?

http://www.discreaderror.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=695

[aaronsullivan]

That was just people blowing a single quote out of proportion. They won't be free unless it's a specific promotion for a game or just for a limited time use (timed trial.) Instead, I imagine, they'll be cheap. It's still pretty cool. One place for all your nintendo needs. Now, I did get to thinking, could you load up an SD card with a fan ROM and get it to run on the Revolution? Unlikey, but still fun to think about. :)

[aarku]

http://gamehouse.com/
http://playfirst.com/

Hard to argue that there isn't a market for them when these folks seem to be making plenty.

-Jon

[socksy]

One thing I found at all to well is that by voting actually brings up the thread, so whoever voted on this thread actually brought up the thread...

There should be a warning on this kind of thing, I did by accident on some other thread.