Marketing question

[Dr. Light]

I have a game I made, and it seems to be pretty well recieved(even by my two younger brothers! :D). Although I have been waiting for years to have my chance at the game of the shareware market, I don't know that I am ready to play it. :confused: I have heard that companies like Ambrosia will look at games made by independent developers and work with them, and I might be interested in that sort of setup. Can anyone give me any information about other companies that do this and things to keep in mind if I do it? Thankssomuch.-Dr. Light



BTW, my game is called "Microbian"(by Lee Michael Bond). And you can check it out in the games section of UDevgames.

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by Dr. Light
I have heard that companies like Ambrosia will look at games made by independent developers and work with them, and I might be interested in that sort of setup. Can anyone give me any information about other companies that do this and things to keep in mind if I do it?

The role of any good shareware publisher is to look at the current state of your game, hear your feedback as to where you're taking the game, and then, if they believe that your game is worth it and they feel that they need to sell it, then a good shareware publisher will do everything they can to make the game the best it can be (For instance, testing & feedback, stock art/music, perhaps hiring an artists/musician). Of course, the more the publisher has to help you out, the less your royalty will be ;)

You should contact people like Ambrosia, Spiderweb, Freeverse, etc. Please note that each publisher is unique and different, often specializing in a specific genre of games. Submitting a FPS to Spiderweb may not be a good idea, since their audience is mainly RPG. However, the worst that can happen if these people play your game is some good, objective feedback on the strengths and weaknesses of your game, as well as other thoughts about what could make it better. Shareware publishers are very picky about the games they choose to run with (understandibly, since their money, time, and reputation depend on the games they chose to publish), so don't be surprised if their not banging down your door right away :)

If you are unable to acquire a publisher, look into self-publishing by using a service such as Kagi. I currently use Kagi, and have been quite happy with the results!


Another thing which would be nice would be a forum here on iDevGames where people could post a thread with a beta/demo of their game in order to solicitate feedback. Something like beta testers, but not quite since you would be solicitating for more than just bugs, but ideas for improvements also.


Cheers,
Rocco

[Dr. Light]

:) That was very helpful, thanks. So it would be adviseable to see how it does in UDevgames first?

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by Dr. Light
:) That was very helpful, thanks. So it would be adviseable to see how it does in UDevgames first?

How well it does in uDevGames would certainly be a good indication as to whether or not you would get a publisher (heh, winning certainly wouldn't hurt ;) ). However, getting more feedback now could also help with your chances in winning uDevGame. Having tried Microbian, I'll give you a bit of feedback now :)

1) The animation is incredibly jerky, making it hard to properly place your laser strikes. Makes it hard to play in general. I tried the game on 600 MHz iBook in OS X and only got around 6-12 fps.

2) It took me 3-4 times playing till I actually figured out what I was supposed to do. Tip for self: user will 99% never read the readme -or- the in-game help. About the best way to get the user to learn quickly is to have an in-game tutorial which does not require a lot of reading (I tend to have problems with this in my own games ;) )

3) Goes hand in hand with number 1, you might want to try using OpenGL. Not only will your fps jump to at least the 30s, there is a lot to be said for a game which runs in fullscreen mode. Games which take all of the users concentration (like Microbian) tend not to be played while working on something else (a chess program you might). Also with OpenGL you gain things like scaling and blending for free.

4) I would personally like a way to click on an icon of the different weapons instead of having to fumble around with the keyboard. Microbian seems to be instinctually mouse-based... I shouldn't have to revert to the keyboard if my mouse is the main tool.

Cheers,
Rocco

[Griggs]

Another thing which would be nice would be a forum here on iDevGames where people could post a thread with a beta/demo of their game in order to solicitate feedback. Something like beta testers, but not quite since you would be solicitating for more than just bugs, but ideas for improvements alsoHmm, that's actually a very good idea. What would such a board be called, and where would it be in our categories? I can't think of anything better than "Try my game"....

Getting feedback on something you've made can be painful, but it's also very useful and even necessary. In addition since we have some knowledgeable people in this Forum they may even be able to suggest ways of fixing problems. I am interested in exploring this 'peer review' idea further.

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by Griggs
Hmm, that's actually a very good idea. What would such a board be called, and where would it be in our categories? I can't think of anything better than "Try my game"....

Getting feedback on something you've made can be painful, but it's also very useful and even necessary. In addition since we have some knowledgeable people in this Forum they may even be able to suggest ways of fixing problems. I am interested in exploring this 'peer review' idea further.

"Peer Review" or "Peer Feedback" sound nice. Perhaps "Developer Feedback" would also be good. Or "iWantFeedbackLetMeHaveIt" ;)

Cheers,
Rocco

[Ian Kerr]

What about "Showcase" or "Game Showcase" or "Softare Showcase"... :), i'm hooked on Showcase

[Dr. Light]

Thanks, those are some good tips I'll probly get around to implementing. But as for speed, it is programmed in METAL 1.7.3, and that is its highest framerate probably. Played little faster than that on my 350 iMac though:confused:. Perhaps not. There is an upgrade to METAL scheduled for later this month though, perhaps those things(Open GL :D, faster runtime architecture :D:D) will be implemented. :)

If anyone else has any ideas I would greatly appreciate the feedback.:p

[Carlos Camacho]

Tip for self: user will 99% never read the readme -or- the in-game help. About the best way to get the user to learn quickly is to have an in-game tutorial which does not require a lot of reading (I tend to have problems with this in my own games )
That is a tip ALL entries should remember. Make your game easy to play at first or add an in-game tutorial!

Griggs, I had plan to have a "showcase" as part of the members section we are discussing in another thread.

Cheers

[Dr. Light]

What do you think about adding an in-game cheat sheet? The player presses a key(which is listed in the actual main menu screen) and the game pauses and a screen pulls up to show him what all the stuff is and the basic object of the game. Does not take up the time of a tutorial, and gives you the basics at the same time. :confused: :D :eek: :) :( :confused: :confused:

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by Dr. Light
What do you think about adding an in-game cheat sheet? The player presses a key(which is listed in the actual main menu screen) and the game pauses and a screen pulls up to show him what all the stuff is and the basic object of the game. Does not take up the time of a tutorial, and gives you the basics at the same time. :confused: :D :eek: :) :( :confused: :confused:

Good idea. Except maybe have the cheat sheet show up the first time the player ever plays, that way the player doesn't need to read anything and you don't clutter up your title screen unnecessarily. Call it a "first time run help sheet" or something, and say on the cheat sheet what key is needed to bring it back up.

Your could also implement the cheat sheet as the area you go to when you pause the game. That way, you could just start the first game paused :) And when the player needs help again, they simply do a normal pause (ESC button).

Cheers,
Rocco

[DaFalcon]

Snake Quest pretty much has controls as simple as you get, but we have a screen that appears only the first time you load the game which tells the player the basic, default controls and how to change them, as well as how to load a level set.

Each level set might have its own special rules, so we display those in the main interface screen so the player can read it as soon as the level set is loaded. And when the player pauses the game, they go back to a slightly modified main interface screen and can read about the level set at that point too.

In all, I think it makes for a pretty easy-to-jump-into gaming experience, and pretty much does what KittyMac says, so I think that is all very good, practical advice!

[Dr. Light]

I like it. I'll just make a screen come up if the player starts a new level from scratch, but not if he continues or resets the game. I'll also add a thing on the main menu where you can access it via a button. Sound good?(I am heavily valueing your opinions):)



P.S. One other thing, I wanted to use the picture in the .pdf tutorial, with extra added to cover buttons and the object of the game. Is that an all-right decision? Thankssomuch.:)

[Dr. Light]

I hate to throw that quick-ref card in the user's face every time he starts from scratch. I have the side menu working great, and the quick-ref (under the title "info") is easily accessable and out front. Do ya'll think that that is good enough? Thankssomuch. :)

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by Dr. Light
I hate to throw that quick-ref card in the user's face every time he starts from scratch.

I downloaded Microbian from the uDevGame page and did not see the additions, so that's probably not the updated one.

Anyhow, you don't have to show it when they start from scratch. If you keep a preferences files, check to see if it is there. If it is not and you have to create a new one, take this as the player is playing Microbian for the first time, then show the help screen automatically. If you don't keep a preferences file, then you'll probably have to keep it the way you have it.

Cheers,
Rocco

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by KittyMac

I downloaded Microbian from the uDevGame page and did not see the additions, so that's probably not the updated one.


Ok, I downloaded the updated Microbian and I must say it is much more impressive. In fact, not only is playing in Fullscreen great, it also fixed my performance problems (I now get a solid 30 fps which is enough to have a good time playing). Also, the weapon buttons on the left are great too... I actually used the laser to blow up a bad guy! Very cool...

So, I only have one more suggestion. When I finished clicking through the automatic help screens, the game was in the "paused" state, when I expected the game to begin automatically. I would suggest having a big "PAUSED" graphic in the middle of the screen so the user knows when it is paused, and can then simply unpause. Or, have the last help screen be something like "Ready? Lets Go!" and when they click the game begins in an unpaused state. Also, when the game was paused I could place the repulsor circles (the green ones), which you shouldn't be allowed to do when the game is paused.

Other than that, good job. I'm sure you now see the value behind Carlos's nagging with "release your contest game as soon as possible in order to receive feedback" :)

BTW, I expect full comments from you when I post my own entry ;)

Cheers,
Rocco

[Carlos Camacho]

>Other than that, good job. I'm sure you now see the value behind Carlos's nagging with
>"release your contest game as soon as possible in order to receive feedback"
A ha, someone is listening to me!

Dr. Light (and others)
One thing I should mention about a company like AmbSoft (and maybe the others) is that they have special libraries they use for getting registrations, checking for pirated serials etc... I am very certain that they are written in C/C++, so a developer who is working with METAL or another non-C/C++ IDE will run into trouble here. That doesn't mean to give up. The METAL game can serve as a model for how the game will play. Anyhow, it should be able to get ported to C/C++ to make the publisher happy later on. Do you get my point?

Here are my thoughts on your game....

I would have a button that introduces each element (character). Perhaps integrate it into the Story Windows. Like "...this is a BLANK <insert image> they are used for....."

This MIGHT just be me, but I would have the actual game screen smaller, and on the OUTSIDE of the play window put in the BAR (top right) and other GUI stuff (like help icons, etc..) I have to play the new version again to offer more advice...

As Rocco said, the more input you get, the better people will receive your game during the voting time.

Where are the other entries?!?!?!?

[Baldock]

Originally posted by Camacho
Where are the other entries?!?!?!?

Well, mine is about 50-60% done. I'm learning that my design doc, which was a checklist in was to short. I hadn't factored in such things as the AI and hadn't fleshed out the full game logic. That is coming back to bite me as I re-design blocks of code which work fine if it was a single player game but don't work with multi players / AI.
I had planned on having my alpha ready by the 2 month mark however ever I think it my end up being the 2.5 month mark with only a week or 2 to polish it :(
I'm curious how the other teams are going?

[zzajin]

Originally posted by Camacho
>Where are the other entries?!?!?!?

Well for me I knew that I would probably never be close to done till early Nov. However, I went away for a weekend a couple of weekends ago and have lost momentum....

I think I'm back on track now tho.

[Dr. Light]

beta four has just been posted. It fixes that crashing upon exiting thing, and has something to let you know its paused. As for the elaborate intro, I will save that for later, as most of the bad guys do pretty much the same thing. But it will be implemented. Also, the reason I let the user place the two non-destructiv weapons is to reduce the player workload and make it a bit more fun to play, it can get a bit hairy at times and I didn't want anyone to get too frustrated. However, if more people feel like its cheating, then I will definitely take it out. As for now, my focus will be on the music. Thanks Rocco, Comancho.

[Dr. Light]

I am implementing many new gameplay features in to Microbian, and hope to perhaps contact developers sometime after the annoucement of the uDev placings. Is there any place I on the internet that I can say "I have this game here.." rather than contacting individual companies? Is Microbian something that they would even go for, even with gamplay improvements?

Furthurmore:
How do I write to individual companies? What do I say? How do I present myself? Should I pitch Microbian or simply let them look?

I am a little nervous at this point, any help would be very... helpful.:???:

Thank you, Lee M. Bond

[FCCovett]

Lee,

For a game like Microbian, you should try to contact the guys at MonkeyByte (try talking to Yon). They offer different plans to market your game through their web-site and mail listing. Their comission is high (about 30%), but that's pretty much what every other portal would charge.

You may try to get your game listed on Tucows (sign up with eSellerate.net first to get some perks) and MacGameFiles if you are willing to make a demo version available (there are others, like Download.com, but they are expensive). Also, check with both MacAddict and InsideMacGames for their demo collection CD-ROMs.

Other than that, as a promotional effort that can possibly give some result, send the PR information to the main Mac magazines as MacUser and MacWorld (Peter Cohen is a nice guy to talk to, and then he may post a note on their web-site). Go to your nearest Kinkos store and check their latest newsletter - there's a good article on how to write a nice and effective press release there.

There are some companies/services that offer to send on your PR to a number of publications, and another service that will include your title on a number of shareware listing web-sites for about $40, but my experience tells me it's not worth the effort. Once the PR is out on MacGamer and InsideMacGames, all other Mac gaming web-sites (inclusive in EU) will follow if they are interested (Camacho may give you a better insight on Japanese publications).

Now, both IMG and MacGamer attract a lot of people who are just interested in downloading demos and their audience is likely to generate just a few sales. You may easily end up with a 1000 downloads in the first month but generate less than 50 sales. Beware of bandwidth fees, and may the Force be with you... :)

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by Dr. Light
I am implementing many new gameplay features in to Microbian, and hope to perhaps contact developers sometime after the annoucement of the uDev placings. Is there any place I on the internet that I can say "I have this game here.." rather than contacting individual companies? Is Microbian something that they would even go for, even with gamplay improvements?

Furthurmore:
How do I write to individual companies? What do I say? How do I present myself? Should I pitch Microbian or simply let them look?

I am a little nervous at this point, any help would be very... helpful.:???:


It seems that you're asking about finding a publisher? Or are you inquiring about self-publishing and how to get your game out?

Since another posted to the latter, I'll give some tips about the former. First off I don't believe their is a central repository that publishers go to look for games at... it tends to be much more personal and one-to-one than that. Many shareware publishers (Ambrosia comes to mind) have information on their website as to their prefered method of being contacted. Being a uDevGame entrant and having a working game out there wil give you a bit of backing, so thats good.

However, remember that companies like Ambrosia and Freeverse have well deserved reputations of publishing the "creme of the crop" of shareware games, and they turn down a magnitude more games than they accept (I contacted Ambrosia a few years ago about a game and got turned away). At the least, they will play your game a probably give you a good amount of feedback, and believe you me they know what they're talking about :)

Another thing to keep in mind is that when going through a publisher you probably get only 20% royalty on the sales, whereas if you self-publish through a service like Kagi you'll get about 70%, but will probably sell less units.

If it helps any, I've tried self-publishing three games. The first two were check order only (no service like Kagi) and only sold about 20 or so total, and VortexNG used Kagi and sold a bit more. After these experiences, if I sell another shareware game I will not self-publish it unless I must ;)

Cheers,
Rocco

[Dr. Light]

Thanks, thats very helpful. I guess I'll try Ambrosia first, then MonkeyByte as FCCovett suggested. Then I'll aim for the publishers on the former suggestions. After that I'll give up and use Kagi :D . Of course, thats after I get my game re-geared and re-tested. I'll need a few beta testers at that time I guess, so if anyone wants to help just send me an email. Thanks again! :D

[FCCovett]

I am not sure how Ambrosia works, but most publishers will ask you to sign a contract giving them exclusive rights to market and distribute your game. Be sure to make those rights expire after a year or so with a possibility for renewal if both parties agree. If you don't do that, you won't be able to market and distribute the game yourself (through other companies) later on.

[Dr. Light]

I am not sure that Microbian is quite that kind of game, but that is something I might want to look out for that I didn't think about. Thanks.:)

[w_reade]

About contracts... I've never had to deal with this personally, but I used to work for a paper publisher, and learned a healthy respect/fear for contracts, so:

Get a lawyer before you sign anything, unless you're totally certain that you've read everything you're signing and you know exactly what everything means.

And even if you do, you should probably get a lawyer anyway. You'd be shocked what "honest, reputable" companies like to put in the first draft of contracts, just in case they can get away with it.

Of course, it depends on your budget, but if a publisher's going to publish your game, it means they think they can make enough money to make it worth their while. So if you get to the signing-contracts stage with people, I'd strongly recommend you get a lawyer, and see the expense as an investment in your game.

[FCCovett]

Well said. I hadn't had any problems with the contract eSellerate presented me but when I first saw MonkeyByte's conditions, I was not very happy with a couple of clauses.

[Dr. Light]

Ok, my update is nearly finished. What do I need to know about pre-pre-beta testing? I plan to announce it on the "help wanted/offered" forum in a day or two.

[skyhawk]

if you let me pre pre beta test it, I will be harsh and test EVERYTHING I can out. :)

[FCCovett]

Perhaps you should prepare a form for your testers to fill in. It's a lot easier to report bugs and voice your opinion when you are provided with basic guidelines / multiple answers to choose from.

[Dr. Light]

Skyhawk, you'll get your chance.;)

As for that form... does anybody have anything that I could use to build on?

[w_reade]

Basically:

Machine and system; What they did; What they expected to happen; What happened.

[Dr. Light]

Ah, Thanks. I'm touching up tonight, may have something ready tomorrow. However, I might delay it since I am thinking about adding a step by step tutorial for the first level.


BTW, Has anyone had any problems with PNG files? After upgrading to Quicktime 6.2, the PNG's I've saved after upgrading turn up as black boxes in my game. Any ideas?

[Dr. Light]

Alright, a beta is ready but I can't seem to find a way to upload it due to some technical difficulties right now. anyone interested just give me an email.

[Dr. Light]

On the friday before christmas I contacted GarageGames, and after a little dialog I sent him the address of the Games section of Udev. to look over the theme and such. He has still not contacted me. Is this normal? Will he contact me to say "no", or does it just end there? What do I do now? I wanted to ask Kemal of Macyunsoft about publishing next, but I still seem to be hanging with this G.G. thing. :argh:

[FCCovett]

Well, it might be because of the holidays, but some guys won't reply at all.

Just send on the game to the other publishers and sit back. Whichever publisher offers the best deal, sign up with them and send the others a letter of thanks.

In life, only a couple of things really matter. The rest is rather trivial, so relax. :)

[Dr. Light]

Wow, thanks. That was very helpful.

However, I am still a little lost on how to approach the subject when I email them. Is there anything to look at as an example or anyone's correspondance that I can go by?

[FCCovett]

"Hello,

I am a independent developer and I just finished developing my first commercial title. I am looking for a publisher to help me promote this and subsequent products.

For immediate information about the game, please visit http://....

If you become interested in this game, or would like to discuss future opportunities, I would be glad to provide you with a courtesy copy and drop by your office in the ........ area.

Thank you for your attention, and good luck!"

It'd wise to have someone proofread this before you use it.

A nice source for template dialogues is a book called "How to Say It at Work". You can find it in most book stores, Office Max, and maybe even in Wal Mart.

[Dr. Light]

There was another option I was heavily considering. Kemal Yun of MacYunSoft specializes in METAL Basic games, and I would be more comfortable doing all this with his company(SUPPOSING that he is interested, of course) since this is my first time around. I really like his games and the knowledge gained would be invaluable. The only downside would be the sales, I am supposing, since it isn't a widely known company. What are some thoughts of yours on that?

[FCCovett]

The truth is that the most exposure you can get for your game would be through CNET's Download.com, MacAddict's CD-ROM, and MacGameFiles. Unfortunately, the first two are paid and the last one is basically visited by people who just want demos and "free" shareware.

Another thing is to send a PR notice to Peter Cohen from MacWorld. He's always been very supportive of the Mac gaming community and he might publish a short note about your game on several web-sites other than InsideMacGames and MacGamer.

There's no secret there; it's unlikely that any publisher will put a lot of money on promoting your game. They'll probably just add your title to their listings and spread the word to their base of customers.

[Dr. Light]

Think I should just appraoch Mr. Yun first then? That seems to be what I am leaning to.;)

[Jake]

Why don't you just publish it yourself (use kagi or paypal). Thats what I am doing. If you need a web server I can set you up a subdomain name (whatever.nuclearnova.com) for free. Thats what im doing with Escape as soon as I finish all the levels for it.

[Dr. Light]

I need someone to help with the publishing part. For instance, it has been reccomended that Microbian's game graphics need a changing, and I KNOW that the music currently in there stinks. Also this is my first time out, and I want to get it right in some respects at least.

[FCCovett]

In regards of graphics and music, I guess the only publisher that could help you is Ambrosia as they claim to have a pool of support people to just give that final touch to your game.

As far as self-publishing goes, the problem is to put a nice store-front on. I'd use eSellerate.net over Kagi or PayPal anytime as they are cheaper, reliable, and they offer a few other perks that the other don't. A nice web-site helps a lot too.

As far as audio tracks and effects go, I would suggest you put a posting on http://www.em411.com . That is a forum for amateur electronic musicians and you might find someone willing to contribute.

[Dr. Light]

OK, But what do you think about forgetting about a bigger label and just going with MacYunSoft and contracting certain people? Kemal Yun can do good music.

[FCCovett]

I don't know much about MacYunSoft so I'd rather not influence your decision.

[Dr. Light]

A bit late for that, eh?;)

They are small but admirable IMO, and make a few good games that are programmed in METAL Basic, so I'd be right at home. Just your opinion is all I'm asking, I will make a decision based on the facts you have presented. Just tell me whether you think its better to go small and comfortable rather than big and (hopefully) profitable. :rolleyes:

[Dr. Light]

Never mind, I won't pressure you. :D


As I think about it, I would kind of be in my own little corner if I were accepted by a major publisher given that it is programmed in METAL Basic, so I'll give this G.G. guy a few days to reply, then ask MacYunSoft.

That should be it ... for now. Thanks for all you guys' help. :-)

[KittyMac]

Originally posted by Dr. Light
so I'll give this G.G. guy a few days to reply

Don't be surprised if it takes longer than a few days. I contacted Ambrosia once and didn't get a response for three weeks. Remember, these guys are usually pretty busy (especially right before MacWorld).

Cheers,
Rocco

[FCCovett]

Even Ambrosia pretty much limit themselves to host a demo of your game, send on a press release to major publications, and include the title on a number of portals. For a long time, I've just seen Ambrosia put money on ads for just Pop-Pop and EV: NOVA (well, Coldstone on iDevGames). Also, Ambrosia's web-site is not that great. That's the kind of stuff you could yourself if you have the inclination for it.

I'd rather fly solo and take blame (or credit) for my own decisions than getting all frustrated with other people, but that's me.

Now, don't set your expectations too high. Mac users are not so inclined to buy games as PC users are, especially independent productions. Give yourself a nice pat on the back if your game sells more than 200 units.

That's my take on this issue.

[Dr. Light]

Don't worry about my expecations, I am in humble/learning mode for this gig.:oops: All right, I'll sit tight for the month then on the G.G. guy before moving on, but I really would like a publisher or partner to help with the polish issues. So I will still approach MacYunSoft after waiting the month on G.G. If that doesn't fall through, I'll go with self-publishing.

Guess I got a little antsy. In a week or two I am about to go on a whirlwind of annual 4-H sheep shows. Parish, district, and state shows are close together and tie me up solid for a month, so I was hoping to have some resolution, oh well. :rolleyes:

[Dr. Light]

Oh yeah, what about stuff like taxes?

[Dr. Light]

I got a return error that follows as such after contacting the G.G. guy to ask if the address I sent him was all right, and got this in return:



----- The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors -----
<jefft@garagegames.com>

----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to trinity.garagegames.com.:
RCPT To:<jefft@garagegames.com>
<<< 451 4.1.8 <jefft@garagegames.com>... Domain of sender address dr_light@beau.lib.la.us does not resolve
<jefft@garagegames.com>... Deferred: 451 4.1.8 <jefft@garagegames.com>... Domain of sender address dr_light@beau.lib.la.us does not resolve
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 5 days old
Reporting-MTA: dns; beau.lib.la.us
Arrival-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:20:25 -0600

Final-Recipient: RFC822; jefft@garagegames.com
Action: delayed
Status: 4.1.8
Remote-MTA: DNS; trinity.garagegames.com
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 451 4.1.8 <jefft@garagegames.com>... Domain of sender address dr_light@beau.lib.la.us does not resolve
Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:35:51 -0600
Will-Retry-Until: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:20:25 -0600



Have I been put on an x-list or something is the guy's mailbox just full?


One last thing, I made a small site for Microbian, just to test my sitemaking skills more than anything else. You can look at it here:

http://members.tripod.com/dr_light2/microbian.html