uDG 2007 Plans?

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Post: #16
AnotherJake Wrote:That's a pretty darn good point OSC! This board is definitely international, so in all fairness timing should be mostly irrelevent. Heck, forget about the students, what about those who have jobs 9-5, 365?!

Don't forget commute time too. Annoyed
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Post: #17
OneSadCookie Wrote:If that's when it happens to be convenient to run the competition, then sure, go ahead, some people will be happy. I just don't think we should be going out of our way to put it at a time that's not convenient, to satisfy a few vocal selfish people.

Errr.... I've said this, but I'd hardly call it selfish. If it's between having it during school and not being able to enter or having it during summer and being able to enter, what do you think I'm going to say?

Quote:Is it fair that some significant proportion of the potential entrants should get time during their holidays, where others don't?

There's always going to be a deficiency of time for some people, but quite honestly, most people here that are in school and would actually have significantly more time for the contest are not exactly Tim Sweeny so I doubt every non-American-school-going-person in the contest is going to lose to those that are. The rest of us still have to work anyway. For me it at least gives me the chance of being able to enter.


And just to throw another chunk of chum in the water, Carlos even said uDG 2006 was supposed to be during the summer AND that uDG 2007 is supposed to be starting in June.


My main point is I think it's hardly fair to call anyone who asks for it 'selfish.' If it's so concerning then someone should put up a poll, everyone can talk it out, and Carlos can make the right decision.
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Post: #18
Well to me at least, there sure does seem to be a solid tendancy for the American school kiddies around here to completely ignore our foreign buddies when it comes to contest scheduling. That does seem selfish to me, whether it is justifiable or not. It is impolite at the very least IMHO.

[adding] And plus, many of the greatest/most important contributors to iDG are located overseas from the US. No poll will be able to take that into consideration.
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Post: #19
Regarding the poll: Of course it can. It doesn't have to be a blind single-question poll. There's no reason you can't have individual responses to a) what country are you in, b) do you want to enter uDG, c) what 3 months are best for you, d) would enter during months XYZ, e) would you enter during months ABC.....

You'd have to ask those kinds of questions for it to be "fair."
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But it still wouldn't be fair, nor representative... It is true that you can definitely poll and get results based on mass rule (or democratically as some might call it), but quantity doesn't necessarily equate to quality in this case. There is a much higher concentration of members here in the US. But I equally value non-US members on this board, and I don't think a poll, no matter how carefully crafted, would fairly represent that value. It's like the electoral college vote in the US -- if it were done as a popular vote, then entire states, such as Wyoming with a small population, would have virtually no say over even one small city somewhere else with completely different interests. So, I totally still agree with OSC that the timing of any contest should just be done whenever it is convenient, rather than by attempting to select a date based on arbitrary criteria.
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Post: #21
It happens to be a mathematical fact that it is impossible to construct any voting scheme that is fair and consistent when there are more than two candidates. This fact is called Arrow's Impossibility Theorem and it applies directly to voting issues like this. That being said, it doesn't stop many state and local governments (even presidential campaigns if you include the independent or green party candidates) from putting more than one candidate on the ballot. Rather than complain about the poll, we should just do it. After all, can it be any more unfair than randomly choosing a date?
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Post: #22
AnotherJake Wrote:But it still wouldn't be fair, nor representative...

The whole point is to be representative. If you don't ask, you're representing no one and would be making a decision based off of no data at all. How is that fair and representative? I'm merely suggesting we get the data Keith so delicately pointed out that we don't have, and basing a decision on facts rather than intuition.


Quote:It is true that you can definitely poll and get results based on mass rule (or democratically as some might call it), but quantity doesn't necessarily equate to quality in this case.

And I never suggested we do so. I said Carlos would make the "right" decision, as in whatever works out to be best/fairest for the most amount of people. If 20 people would enter for September-November, and 2 adults and 3 complete newbs would enter in June-August, then there's no reason to choose September-November over June-August.

The premise here is that by holding the contest in summer it would give American students a significant advantage. I'm merely suggesting that we actually conduct a survey to demonstrate this would be the case. If the additional people that would enter are inexperienced or would have the same amount of time available as non-American students (I would fall into this category if I were to enter) then it's clearly not such a giant advantage and the greater participation should be welcomed.


Quote:So, I totally still agree with OSC that the timing of any contest should just be done whenever it is convenient, rather than by attempting to select a date based on arbitrary criteria.

"September to November" is arbitrary. Basing it off of when you can have the most participation is definitely not arbitrary.

Not to mention: convenient for who? Convenient for Carlos? Given that Carlos said he wanted the uDG 2006 and 2007 to be during summer, then wouldn't that be unfair for all the non-Americans? Wouldn't we be having this same dicussion to move the date to a different time period? We would, and I would making this same point. If you want it to be as fair as possible, you have to base the date off of facts. That's all I'm saying.
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Post: #23
Nevada Wrote:It happens to be a mathematical fact that it is impossible to construct any voting scheme that is fair and consistent when there are more than two candidates.

Nobody ever suggested voting, so this is moot.
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Post: #24
FreakSoftware Wrote:The premise here is that by holding the contest in summer it would give American students a significant advantage. I'm merely suggesting that we actually conduct a survey to demonstrate this would be the case.
Exactly! According to *your* premise, I am arguing that American students would get a significant advantage (possibly over everyone including employed Americans) no matter what the outcome of a survey would show. Furthermore, no matter how that survey is constructed, there is still no way that it can fairly discount the concentration of Americans vs. the rest of the world.

Quote:Convenient for Carlos?
Yes, exactly, convenient to Carlos, not American students, would be best IMHO.

I'm not trying to say that I completely disagree with you, but mob rule definitely appears to favor us Americanos, and unfairly tends to ignore our other non-US members. I honestly see where you are coming from, but I continue to respectfully disagree with your position.
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Post: #25
AnotherJake Wrote:Yes, exactly, convenient to Carlos....would be best IMHO

In that case, we should completely ignore the concerns of Keith and every other non-American and just do it in the summer like Carlos wanted. Then us American students will have an advantage. More free stuff for us!


Quote:...not American students...

And obviously I don't want to do what's most convenient for American students. I thought you did understand me, but saying that makes me doubt it. My point in that section was that Carlos's own convenience is actually currently unfair to all the non-American students.

So if you want it to be during the non-summer months, but you want it to be at Carlos's convenience then we're not going to have a contest. Or at least one that isn't "fair" (if by giving more time to mostly inexperienced kids is unfair, that is).

And at any rate, simply because something isn't perfect doesn't mean you should give up on it entirely. It's certainly worth a shot IMO and at the very least we'd know more about iDG members. There's no downside.
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Post: #26
I don't personally care when the contest is; it'll be equally impossible for me to enter at any time.

I also don't care whether the timing is good for one set of people and bad for another -- that'll always be the case, only the sizes of those sets of people will change. Since uDG runs for 3 months, there's a good chance that everyone will hit some time with less workload, and some time with more. It's not a problem.

What I care about is people petitioning Carlos "ooh, ooh, schedule it for me, me!" without any care about whether that scheduling is good for Carlos, or good for anyone else (and every year, we get a number of American students doing just this, with the unjustified justification that it'll be better for "most people").

Bottom line is, uDG will be if, and when, it's convenient for Carlos, and we'll be grateful for it whenever that might be.

If you think you can glean some useful demographic data about active members by polling, go right ahead, but it's not the issue here.
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Post: #27
FreakSoftware Wrote:Nobody ever suggested voting, so this is moot.

Arrow's Theorem actually isn't posed in the form of voting. It stated that there are no ranking systems that satisfy five certain criteria (basically listing different kinds of "fairness" that I won't get into). In all, it basically says that when there are more than two choices to rank (as in a survey), there is no way to guarantee that the rankings will be completely fair and representative. Whether the ranking is done through voting or by evaluating survey data is irrelevant. Anyway, I should mention that this doesn't mean that every set of ranking data will necessarily produce these issues of unfairness, only that it can (and probably will)...

Nonsense aside, I am going to have to agree completely with OSC here...
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Post: #28
FreakSoftware Wrote:More free stuff for us!
I get your sarcasm, don't worry. I'm not trying to make something out of nothing here.Smile

FreakSoftware Wrote:And obviously I don't want to do what's most convenient for American students. I thought you did understand me, but saying that makes me doubt it.
That's cool, it is entirely possible that I am not seeing what you're saying. My apologies for being a PITA in either case. I just don't see why there should be any preferential scheduling based off of anything other than what is convenient for Carlos. And you have to admit that there always does seem to be a loud (small) group coming from the states lobbying for timing which is convenient for them.
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Post: #29
AnotherJake Wrote:That's cool, it is entirely possible that I am not seeing what you're saying. My apologies for being a PITA in either case.

Bah, you're not being a PITA. We're both just trying to do what's best.


Quote:I just don't see why there should be any preferential scheduling based off of anything other than what is convenient for Carlos.

Ok, I can understand that, and I'm not arguing against Carlos's convenience. Sorry if it sounded like that. I was trying to point out that Carlos's convenience is currently conflicting with the "fairness" Keith is trying to keep by having uDG in non-summer months.
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Post: #30
OneSadCookie Wrote:I don't personally care when the contest is; it'll be equally impossible for me to enter at any time.

Same here Rasp


Quote:What I care about is people petitioning Carlos "ooh, ooh, schedule it for me, me!" without any care about whether that scheduling is good for Carlos, or good for anyone else (and every year, we get a number of American students doing just this, with the unjustified justification that it'll be better for "most people").

Ahh. Okay, I see the distinction. I had interpreted your first post to mean that you were saying it was selfish to request the date to be changed to be more convenient, rather than you saying it was selfish to request the date to be changed to be more convenient without thinking of others at all.

I don't know if I said that well enough to make sense, but at least I know what you meant. Smile
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