Are today's gamers too soft?

Lucis-Gladius
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Post: #46
Quote by Erazer:
"I agree with you on some levels, it would be great to able to play a more indrawing(can't find the right wordÖ) but relaxed gameÖ But I also like to feel my heart pumping as I run around in dark corridors planning how to avoid and be able to kill the aliens in Aliens Vs Predator."

I`m a very big Ridley Scott fan, Ridley spoke of recreating worlds, thats exactly what I have in mind. Erazer you spoke about action games getting your hart pumping, well I`m really sorry for talking so much about battlefield, but that game really gets my heart pumping (sort`a speak like Erazer).

I allready know how to make an action game relaxed, its my idea I`m working on it and I need all the help I can get, but I`dd promised Camacho I`dd stop posting documents, so I`m not writing it down !

Instead let me post some of my action gaming experience very quickly:

We all saw on television long ago about the Chinese student with a plastic bag in his hand stopping a tank by himself on the square of Peking, me with battlefield online I`m walking arround with an RPG/Stinger, and all of a sudden I come face to face with an enemy tank/chopper. OOH BOY (my heart goes pumping lol), its like shooting as fast as you can, move away/reload, shoot again from another postion. Repeat this untill the tank/chopper has been destroyed.

Ah really cool move with the RPG in Bf online; an enemy jeep comes riding towards me at high speeds with the intention of running me over, I position my self on the middle of the road and crounch, waiting untill the vehicle is in 100% bulls eye range and then: BAM!!!!!!! Side step afterwards, I always win that :-)

Thats what gets my heart pumping !
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srcleaves
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Post: #47
I appreciate old arcade games and enjoy retro gaming on occassion but I was never really good at any of them. Their goal was to make money by getting people to continually feed quarters. With Guantlet and other games you started to see a switch to letting you live longer by applying more quarters, but the goal was the same, just a bit more forgiving to the player. Now you've got people playing in their home and the quick death scenario just does not appeal to players in that environment. They have invested many dollars in the game up front and want to be able to play it. How many people would drop $49.95 on a single machine in the arcade? The game should be a challenge but without being frustrating. Unfortunately depending on your ability and the type of game you may still get frustrated. I got all the way to the end of Wind Waker and simply could not beat the boss inside the tower so I never got to the end of the game. I tried it a few times and just could not do it. Playing it over and over was just frustrating. But not all replay experiences are frustrating. Take Ridge Racer and the race to unlock the Black Lamborghini. I played that over and over, getting to the level of perfection required to play the race with basically no mistakes. It was exhausting, but rewarding.

Where I hope games will go is dynamic difficulty. Not simply increasing or decreasing the numbers of monsters, or even modifying the "intelligence" of the AI. I mean a game that sees the player is either having trouble or getting through too easily and adjusting dynamically to keep the game a challenge. For the player with trouble jumping maybe the game gets more lenient on the jumps or adjusts platforms to be closer. For the player cruising through the FPS with barely a scratch the game would put in more wandering monsters and have them team up. Games with this sort of capability will appeal to all comers because it never gets frustrating.

If the player has a bad experience they may avoid your games in the future and tell others to do the same. Word of mouth has great power. The goal really should be an excellent experience that leaves a positive impression in the gamer.
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Post: #48
srcleaves, I love your idea of dynamic difficulty. I hope to incorporate that into my games someday, and it's something I've pondered before, too.

One possible negative, though, is hardcore gamers who see their less-experienced friends playing and see, "ooh, this game looks WAY too easy," and then never tries it out, even though the difficulty would ramp up for him. Same goes for vice versa. It would be important to sell this point of the game, that the difficulty adjusts to the player... I think so, anyway. Though advertising that feature may make some people change their play style, too... A good idea, a little tricky implementation.

KB Productions, Car Care for iPhone/iPod Touch
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All too often, art is simply the loss of practicality.
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Post: #49
srcleaves Wrote:I appreciate old arcade games and enjoy retro gaming on occassion but I was never really good at any of them. Their goal was to make money by getting people to continually feed quarters. With Guantlet and other games you started to see a switch to letting you live longer by applying more quarters, but the goal was the same, just a bit more forgiving to the player. Now you've got people playing in their home and the quick death scenario just does not appeal to players in that environment. They have invested many dollars in the game up front and want to be able to play it.

The orginal arcade games may have been designed to eat up all your 10p's, but the home computer games of the time were not as no coin slot came with them. Sure some of the games were inspired / clones of the arcade games, but there were lots of them which were not.

There are times you want a short play game. You may have 15 minutes to kill with some mindless fun. You may have friends round and waiting 2 weeks for each of the 5 of you to finish the game is not fun - you want a fun game that is short yet easy to show how much better you are then the rest of your friends.

There is a time and place of all kinds of games.

The dynamic difficulty is a nice idea, but it would have to be done correctly to work. A game has to be challenging to be fun otherwise there is no point in playing it. Having a game where the aliens drop dead if you are doing badly so you can still finish the level is not good. There is no motiviaton to improve to beat the level if you can still finish it no matter how bad you are.
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srcleaves
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Post: #50
BeyondCloister Wrote:The dynamic difficulty is a nice idea, but it would have to be done correctly to work. A game has to be challenging to be fun otherwise there is no point in playing it. Having a game where the aliens drop dead if you are doing badly so you can still finish the level is not good. There is no motiviaton to improve to beat the level if you can still finish it no matter how bad you are.

I'm not sure I really agree that a game has to be challenging to be fun. I think it really depends on the player and what they want at that moment. I think the majority of games use that approach and we just haven't seen that many games successfully break out of it. Webster doesn't apply the word challenge to any of the definitions of game.

Personally I really like just exploring worlds and building things. Knights and Merchants for example was a lot of fun to build up your town but the combat really sucked and was annoying to me. Rollercoaster Tycoon was very appealing since it was all about building and even once you had acheived the goal of the scenario the game would let you continue with that park as long as you wanted. Now that was a good design. Don't force the player to give up fun just because the objective was met. Clearly this would be hard to apply to some games and certain other games you may just get to the objective and would be doomed if you had to continue.

I agree it could be challenging to implement the dynamic difficulty well. And I'm sure it will be different for each game type and probably not even appropriate for many games. But for those games it does work well for I think it will be a huge success. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that things would simply drop dead. I'm talking about situations where the game can analyze the player's problem and aid them. If your player is constantly missing a jump in a platformer and has reloaded X times they are most likely getting frustrated, I know I would be. Help them get past that jump and back into the game. Likewise frustration can come from a game being too easy for more experienced players. I'm also not saying this would be the sole way to operate, I think this would augment existing systems for difficulty. No doubt someone will come up with some flashy marketing title for it and it will be an option.

In the end as long as there are players of your game and they enjoy it the game is a success. Whether it uses 1 touch kills, a health meter, or doesn't even get into death, the thing that counts is if people play it.

<Can the Smilies sidebar thing be gotten rid of? It hammers my machine. I often use quick reply just to avoid it.>
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Post: #51
srcleaves Wrote:<Can the Smilies sidebar thing be gotten rid of? It hammers my machine. I often use quick reply just to avoid it.>

Since when is there a Smilies sidebar here? Are you sure you're not confusing this site with CMG? Rasp

Alex Diener
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Post: #52
The Smilies sidebar appears when you do an advanced reply instead of a Post Quick Reply.
There was a debate long ago about animating smiles or not as animated ones caused this problem on some computers.
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Post: #53
BeyondCloister Wrote:The Smilies sidebar appears when you do an advanced reply instead of a Post Quick Reply.

Not for me it doesn't.

Alex Diener
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Post: #54
To get rid of the smileys (and everything else)... Ninja

User CP > Edit Options > Miscellaneous Options > Basic Editor
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srcleaves
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Post: #55
DaFalcon Wrote:To get rid of the smileys (and everything else)... Ninja

User CP > Edit Options > Miscellaneous Options > Basic Editor

Ah ha! Excellent. Thanks!
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Hog
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Post: #56
another thing that concerns me, i think it is somehow related with a games difficulty, but it really bugs me when it takes me less than two days to beat the game on highest difficulty after having only played the demo version before. (i.e.: Rune, AvP, NWN, Halo ...) (i suppose those focus specifically on multiplayer).
i remember back in the old days it used to take longer to beat a game, mostly because they were harder and you had to do a lot of searching to find out how to get further.
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Post: #57
You also probably weren't as good at gaming back then :-) But I could be wrong. I like challening games, but only if they are fair challenges. Cheapness is not welcome, though it makes a game "hard", and same with obscure paths to victory. Maybe I am just a "soft" gamer :-)
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Post: #58
Even "hard" gamers feel screwed when they get killed on a cheap shot. It's a quick patch-over for a design that doesn't properly ramp up in difficulty.

And while I do have a spot for games where the objective/destination isn't clear (the original Zelda, or Myst) I don't really have the time nowadays to wander aimlessly bombing every wall.

Finally, I think dynamic difficulty is only appropriate in certain games. The most obvious place where it doesn't work is any game where the objective is to achieve a score. If I'm a much better player at game X than Joe Bob, I expect to last longer and have a higher score. I'll feel cheated if Joe Bob's game is easier and allows him to achieve a higher score than he frankly deserves.

I still prefer discrete difficulty levels. If Joe Bob sucks at game X, he can always set it to the easy setting, while I can set it as high as it goes. I've always found it very rewarding to play a game at the highest setting. And for the people who play on easy, it gives them motivation to increase their skills if they see 3 more difficulty levels above them.

I WOULD like to see dynamic difficulty in a game like Final Fantasy, though. Sort of like FF8 and FFT where the enemies levelled up with you.

Justin Ficarrotta
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Post: #59
JustinFic Wrote:And while I do have a spot for games where the objective/destination isn't clear (the original Zelda, or Myst) I don't really have the time nowadays to wander aimlessly bombing every wall.

LOL. I was playing the original Zelda on my Gamecube last month and remember thinking the same thing ... how in the world did manage to bomb every wall, burn every bush ...... I must have played that game FOREVER because I know where everything is. In both quests :-) I certainly wouldn't care for game design like that today ... and the (good) designers know that, they have cracks in walls that can be bombed, etc.
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Post: #60
c_dev Wrote:another thing that concerns me, i think it is somehow related with a games difficulty, but it really bugs me when it takes me less than two days to beat the game on highest difficulty after having only played the demo version before. (i.e.: Rune, AvP, NWN, Halo ...) (i suppose those focus specifically on multiplayer).
i remember back in the old days it used to take longer to beat a game, mostly because they were harder and you had to do a lot of searching to find out how to get further.

How on Earth do you find time to finish a game such as NWN in two days? Or do you mean non stop play for two days?

In the old days it took me longer to complete games as game play time was limited.
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