Mac is SOO frustrating to program for

Posts: 365
Joined: 2002.04
Post: #16
In the hope that HelloKitty isn't trolling, I'll try to offer some constructive suggestions....

Yes, Project Builder / Xcode's text editor is pretty bad. If you don't like it, you can either use a different editor (there are plenty to choose from) or switch to CodeWarrior. CodeWarrior costs money, but in my opinion it has a much better editor (especially with regard to syntax highlighting) and a faster compiler. CodeWarrior can also be hosted on Windows and cross-compile for the Mac, so if you really can't bear to use a Mac, you don't have to.

You can also rebind the keyboard controls in PB/Xcode (and CodeWarrior). In Xcode, go to the preferences dialog and choose Key Bindings. You can even change the Home/End key behaviour if you want, although admittedly you can't make it do different things depending upon whether you press it once or twice. You might be better off learning that Command-Up/Down take you to the top and bottom of a document and Command-Left/Right take you to the beginning and end of the line (in most normal programs).

The crash-related filesystem trashing seems to be effectively eliminated by enabling filesystem journalling (available in Mac OS X 10.2, on as standard on 10.3). With journalling enabled you can pretty much pull the plug out as much as you like!


Neil Carter
Nether - Mac games and comic art
Post: #17
Yes, Comacho, you are totally correct.

A unusually hateful reply from onesadcookie was the only email I revcieved when I offered the $300

So, I tryed to do it myself, but apples doesnt have any cocoa HID Manager examples. I dont want to add carbon code at this point no matter how easy it is.

I think I chose the wrong time to port to mac. They are changing too rapidly, which is good, but I cant keep up. I dont even have panther. If I make it for panther is it going to work on jaguar? Then what do I do when Cheetah! comes out.

thanks for the info ncarter. Ill look into CodeWarrior. The cross compiling sounds good, especially if they also support linux.
Post: #18
On the topic of home and end keys, personally, I find the command+left and command+right (or apple+left and apple+right) going to the beginning and end of lines to be a lot more intuitive (and alot quicker) then lifting my hand all the way over to the 'home' or 'end' key.

Take care,
Posts: 832
Joined: 2002.09
Post: #19
Actually, you received quite a few more replies than that, I said I'd be glad to help, even though I don't know the HID, and NCarter (one of the nicest guys on this board, btw) offered source code. It's just that very few people here know the HID, OSC being just about the only one, along with KittyMac(?).

I still hope you feel welcome here, though. We need more ports. Smile
Posts: 164
Joined: 2002.04
Post: #20
Why would you *ever* pull the plug on a mac. At the worst you might get a kernal panic and have to press the restart button, or command-control-startup. Actually in the absolute worst-case scenario you might have to push the startup button on the computer for a couple seconds.

I've done that a few thousand times in my mac programming career and have never had any problems with it...
Posts: 92
Joined: 2002.04
Post: #21
If you have another computer on the same network get a SSH client for it. Then if your Mac OS X box locks up you should be able to ssh in to it and to a reboot. Very similar to linux in that aspect. I've been using Mac OS X since the beta and I've had to do it about 12 times or so in the past.. what .. 3 years? I very much recommend 10.3. I've yet to have a single problem with it on 2 different Macs.

Justin "LordFire" Baldock
Posts: 5,143
Joined: 2002.04
Post: #22
I'd just like to point out for the record that Windows stole the edit menu shortcuts from the Mac, and it's really the fact that Windows doesn't have a command key that's the problem...

As for my "hateful email", please post it here and let the others judge for themselves...
Posts: 370
Joined: 2002.04
Post: #23
I've only had trouble with three things - fullscreen programs locking up (reboot or remote ssh login, kill the process), debugging a problem that happened only in fullscreen (gdb over ssh Grin), and corrupted files (single-user boot, fix the offenders, reboot)

Nothing major at all. And, since I've switched to the journaled file system, both of my whopping 2 crashes have resulted in neither data loss nor disk checking (fsck). On the other hand, I sat down at my brother's XP computer. In fifteen minutes, it crashed five times. I gave up and moved back...

Did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath the clear blue sky?
Posts: 434
Joined: 2002.09
Post: #24
Quote:Originally posted by OneSadCookie
I'd just like to point out for the record that Windows stole the edit menu shortcuts from the Mac, and it's really the fact that Windows doesn't have a command key that's the problem...

Yep. "Macs shouldn't try to introduce a proprietary key" was what we were told. Then years later, what does Microsoft add to their brand of keyboards? A special "Windows" shortcut key.

Anyway, kitty, the point is to get your facts straight. There are some valid things to rant about with Mac programming, but sadly you aren't being selective about what you post and so people may tend to ignore you. I also find it odd that you post knee-jerk flames, then when people are a little short with you you get in a huff that people aren't being more polite.

Measure twice, cut once, curse three or four times.
Posts: 116
Joined: 2002.04
Post: #25
The behavior you're looking for in terms of the home and end keys is done with Command right and left arrow. In most text editors, you can remap that to home and end if you like.

Why is it different? Who knows? Windows is neither "the standard" or "right" - it's just different.

As for HID, I don't believe anyone's written a Cocoa wrapper, so you just access it from within your Cocoa program as straight C. It doesn't require any Carbon knowledge.

Download the HID Utilities sample code from Apple's site, include that library in your application and use that.

You spent a lot of time learning how to program in Windows and getting comfortable with the environment and you expect that knowledge to transfer over immediately on the Mac. Needless to say, that's not realistic.

Posts: 201
Joined: 2002.06
Post: #26
Quote:The way apple changes the cut, and paste keys per application, every year is nauseating.

I have never, ever seen Apple use anything besides Command-X and Command-V.

Quote:the home, and end keys do not act like windows.

Nor should the Home and End keys act like Windows. The fact is, you are not using Windows. You are using a Mac. Many people choose to use Macs because they are more intuitive than Windows. Your problem is, apparently, that you are accustomed to the Windows way of doing things. You are having growing pains.

Quote:Apple says, ok, now everyone program in cocoa, and go the way of OSX, but all their sample code is using carbon.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Cocoa is not the only OS X native environment out there. Cocoa has yet to implement some of the things that Carbon does very well. Why abandon Carbon completely? Use whatever works in your Cocoa applications. It won't make your application bad in the least bit.

Quote:I port my entire application to project builder, and now that is no longer supported.

XCode is Project Builder. There is nothing to fear at all.

Quote:And now I hear that the HID manager has bugs when reading the keyboard.

Oh, so you want to talk about bugs? Ever heard of that monstrosity called Windows? With the way Apple usually works, the fact that the bug is publicized means the bug will probably get fixed.

Quote:if your mac crashes, and you have to pull the plug, it trashes the file system, and you have to reinstall the os.

Never ever happened to me. I have reinstalled a couple times, but not for any reasons other than it being the simplest way to force myself to get rid of my own hard-drive-sucking files. I've had maybe seven kernel panics in the last three or four years (Wow, when did I switch to OS X?). Most were in Puma. Never had a kernel panic mess up my file system. Enable journaling and you should have no problems in that respect.

Quote:hitting the end key should first take you to the end of the line, then the end of the page. Apple goes to end of page no matter what. Same goes for the home key.

Once again, you are assuming that the Windows way of doing things is the right way. I see Apple's way of using Command-arrowkey as much more intuitive. You don't have to think to know what it will do. Command-Left moves all the way to the left. Command-Up moves all the way up. How much more intuitive could you get?

Quote:it wasnt cut, and paste, sorry, it was undo. on win its ctrl+z. Apple added support for this, but its apple+z. The lame part being that apple does have a control key, so why not follow the standard.

There we go again about standards. If following standards meant being just like Windows, then the best way to stick with the standards would be to just stick with Windows. That's not what Mac is all about. Mac is about trying to do things in a way that is easier to learn and remember.

Quote:not all windows maximize??? They never goes full screen. whats up with that?

Maximizing windows is not efficient. Why take up the entire screen for one window when all that window needs is half of the screen? That button in your window's title bar is not a maximize box, it is a zoom button. It makes the window toggle between a user-defined size (set by dragging the resize corner in the lower right) and the optimum size for the content of that window. There is actually a little more to it than that (it's behavior with different user-defined sizes is a bit more complex), but the fact that I use it all the time and don't even know exactly what the system is shows that it is intuitive enough for it not to matter whether I know every little nuance of it.

Quote:1 button mouse. laugh. Also, not having the mouse wheel sets apple back 6 years.

Proven fact: people find it much more intuitive to use a one-button mouse. When trying to help computer-illiterate people use a computer with a three-button mouse, I may tell them to click on something. "Which button do I press?" is the usual answer. On a computer with only one mouse button, there is no question. That said, I use a three-button mouse, and I know of several people that use more. OS X has full support for multi-button mouses, Macs simply don't ship with them. It's a decision by Steve Jobs that I actually disagree with, but so be it. Buy a three-button mouse and deal with the thousands of dollars that it sets you back.
Posts: 832
Joined: 2002.09
Post: #27
On the subject of home/end: Cmd-Left/Right takes you to the end of the line, Opt-Left/Right takes to the next blank space, and shift-Left/Right selects text, while also allowing the possible combinations.

Quote:1 button mouse. laugh. Also, not having the mouse wheel sets apple back 6 years.

Both Carbon and Cocoa support up to 34 mouse buttons. Yes, that is 32 + left/right. And I can't ever say I felt the need for a scroll wheel in any Mac app. When I play Q3, I use Q/E to change weapons, and that's just about the last time I ever touched a scroll wheel. But, should to feel inclined to, just get a scroll-wheel mouse!
Posts: 869
Joined: 2003.01
Post: #28
HelloKitty: If you want to ask for help with something in particular, do it in a new thread, if it has to do with general Mac usage, post it in freetalk.

No flamewars here. Shame on all of you!

Believe that people are willing to help if you ask, though it may not be instant. Also take the time to familiarize yourself with the Mac platform and its usage before ranting about key commands.

Check out the #idevgames chat on for quick help, a lot of the gurus hang there from time to time.
Posts: 434
Joined: 2002.09
Post: #29
Quote:Originally posted by DoG

No flamewars here. Shame on all of you!

[Hangs head, shuffles feet] ...sorry...

HelloKitty, I hear you about Apple's one-button mice. Mice are cheap, but it sounds like you probably have a Windows multibutton mouse already. If it's USB, just plug it into your Mac and go. No need to even download the manufacturer's Mac drivers (if they even have any.) I believe the scrollwheel will work in most OS X applications too.

In fact, I would say that my Microsoft mouse works better under OS X than under Windows, but maybe that's because my Dell laptop's trackpad drivers are interfering with it. (Also, for some bizarre reason the VB text editor doesn't support the scroll wheel even though MSVC does.)

Hope that helps a little.

Measure twice, cut once, curse three or four times.
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